Has anyone ever heard of a make of mic amp/eq by a company called PAST. I`ve been to a studio today that had 4 of them all 1U. They`re supposed to have been made by an ex Neve employee. They looked a bit Nevish in terms of the controls they had !
PAST mic amp eq ?
- Thread starter Rob Flinn
- Start date
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rascalseven
Well-known member
Steve Butterworth is the guys name, I believe, who made (makes?) that eq. It is basically a 1081-type (or perhaps the later 31105-type used in the 8078 consoles), a four-band, switchable frequencies, hi-Q on the mids, peaking/shelving on the hi's and lo's. Neve 338-type amps blocks with 340-type class-AB outputs.
Steve did work for Neve years ago, though I do not know in what capacity. I have never been able to find online information about this eq, though I do have a review of it from a mid-1990's magazine somewhere. I'll have to dig out the article to tell more. If I find it I'll report back with more.
Basically, a class-AB output, four-band Neve channel amplifier in a 1ru chassis built by an ex-Neve-ite.
JC
Steve did work for Neve years ago, though I do not know in what capacity. I have never been able to find online information about this eq, though I do have a review of it from a mid-1990's magazine somewhere. I'll have to dig out the article to tell more. If I find it I'll report back with more.
Basically, a class-AB output, four-band Neve channel amplifier in a 1ru chassis built by an ex-Neve-ite.
JC
JC
Thanks for that info. If you are able to locate the review I would be interested to know more. The Owner of the studio I was at said they were really good.
Thanks for that info. If you are able to locate the review I would be interested to know more. The Owner of the studio I was at said they were really good.
rascalseven
Well-known member
Didn't find the review, but I did find a cutsheet on it.
Peace,
JC
Peace,
JC
Thanks JC
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rascalseven
Well-known member
I don't have any schematics, but I did look inside one once (Rob, any chance they'd let you have a look inside one of the ones you saw recently???) I remember green St.Ives transformers and board components and layout similar to the Neve version. That was before I really began to learn about Neve stuff, though, so I don't know that much about the PAST design.
Without truly knowing otherwise, my guess is that Steve probably used the 31105 design as the basis for this unit. At the time PAST started (1986, I think) the Neve 1081 and 1073 craze hadn't yet fully begun, though some engineers were clearly beginning to appreciate the older Neve designs. The 31105 is the most 'refined' of the 4-band channel amplifiers, so it would make sense that this, coupled with the fact that it is also the most feature-packed discrete Neve module, would make it a good candidate for cloning at the time. Also, the knobs on the PAST unit are the same black and blue plastic types used on the 31105.
If this is true, then it wouldn't have the LO2567-type output transformer of the 1081 (basically an ungapped LO1166 wired for +10dB step-up), but instead the TO129 tertiary feedback output transformer (+8dB step-up). Modules with the TO129 is a bit more persnickity to set up properly. Here's a great post from Geoff Tanner that describes it:
"The next 32 series line amplifier(3405)used a 340 amplifier to drive a
LO1173 that had 8dB step up and internally mounted damping resistors.
I have heard very naughty claims that the 3405 will sound like the
1081 when wired as a mic pre.... not so, the circuitry is quite
different even if the amplifiers are the same. The really obvious
difference being that the 1081 drives a chunky LO2567 transformer with
10dB step up compared to the weeny transformer in the 3405.
With the introduction of the 3415 line amplifier the new TO129
transformer was introduced. This was identical to the LO1173, but had
a 1:1 (relative to the input) tertiary feedback winding added to it to
include the distortion in the transformer path with the negative
feedback from the driver amplifier.
Now here I am going to stick my neck out and suggest that Neve got the
circuit diagram wrong for this transformer application... and I'll
explain why....
Any Neve module with an output transformer has an issue with the
capacitance of the cable tied to the output, especially in the cable
is going to a distant remote patchbay or tape machine. The capacitance
of the cable resonates with the leakage inductance of the transformer
and causes a high frequency hump... You know, that famous one Rupert
speaks of at 45KHz that Geoff Emerick could hear! You can check this
either by sweeping the consone or by simply sticking a square wave
though the beast and watching by how much it rings... it shouldn't be
more than a tiny blip... around 5% max overshoot.
You fix this by loading the path with a resistor to dampen the effect,
indeed you can tune the circuit to flat at 20KHz and very gentle roll
off beyond this point by selecting the best value for this resistor...
say around 3Kohm max and 600 ohm minimum.
Having explained the nastyness of having capacitance hanging on a
tranformer coupled output... look what Neve did with a TO129... they
hung around 2 nanofarad directly across secondary, rather than the R/C
network on every other Neve transformer (the resistor on these dampens
the effect of the C).
It would have been a far smarter thing to have changed the value of
that capacitor.... after all, it's total value and effect depends on
the capacitance of the load applied to the module output, and to fit
an internal damping resistor... as done on the 3405.
On the topic of TO129, all those transformers were made by Marinair
Radar and I know for a fact that "latter day copiers" have major grief
reproducing it because of the difficulty in squeezing that extra
winding onto an already crowded small bobbin. I have heard horror
stories on this matter and personally don't know why anyone should be
bothering to recreate it. I'd leave the feedback off and wire the
module like a 3405... noting that the gain setting resistors need
changing to compensate for the lack of extra feedback.
This only applies to copiers... if you have a regular Neve console
with modules fitted with a TO129, just sweep the output and adjust for
best response. " -Geoff Tanner
Rob, perhaps you can use this info to sneak a peek inside these, you know, to make sure they have them set-up properly :wink: .
The only other consequencial differences between the 31105 design and the 1081 that I am aware of is the use of different inductors in the mid bands, same type, just different values, I believe. Oh yeah, and BA4xx modules throughout instead of BA3xx blocks.
Rob, if you can have a look inside one I'd be interested to know if my assumptions are accurate or not.
Peace,
JC
Without truly knowing otherwise, my guess is that Steve probably used the 31105 design as the basis for this unit. At the time PAST started (1986, I think) the Neve 1081 and 1073 craze hadn't yet fully begun, though some engineers were clearly beginning to appreciate the older Neve designs. The 31105 is the most 'refined' of the 4-band channel amplifiers, so it would make sense that this, coupled with the fact that it is also the most feature-packed discrete Neve module, would make it a good candidate for cloning at the time. Also, the knobs on the PAST unit are the same black and blue plastic types used on the 31105.
If this is true, then it wouldn't have the LO2567-type output transformer of the 1081 (basically an ungapped LO1166 wired for +10dB step-up), but instead the TO129 tertiary feedback output transformer (+8dB step-up). Modules with the TO129 is a bit more persnickity to set up properly. Here's a great post from Geoff Tanner that describes it:
"The next 32 series line amplifier(3405)used a 340 amplifier to drive a
LO1173 that had 8dB step up and internally mounted damping resistors.
I have heard very naughty claims that the 3405 will sound like the
1081 when wired as a mic pre.... not so, the circuitry is quite
different even if the amplifiers are the same. The really obvious
difference being that the 1081 drives a chunky LO2567 transformer with
10dB step up compared to the weeny transformer in the 3405.
With the introduction of the 3415 line amplifier the new TO129
transformer was introduced. This was identical to the LO1173, but had
a 1:1 (relative to the input) tertiary feedback winding added to it to
include the distortion in the transformer path with the negative
feedback from the driver amplifier.
Now here I am going to stick my neck out and suggest that Neve got the
circuit diagram wrong for this transformer application... and I'll
explain why....
Any Neve module with an output transformer has an issue with the
capacitance of the cable tied to the output, especially in the cable
is going to a distant remote patchbay or tape machine. The capacitance
of the cable resonates with the leakage inductance of the transformer
and causes a high frequency hump... You know, that famous one Rupert
speaks of at 45KHz that Geoff Emerick could hear! You can check this
either by sweeping the consone or by simply sticking a square wave
though the beast and watching by how much it rings... it shouldn't be
more than a tiny blip... around 5% max overshoot.
You fix this by loading the path with a resistor to dampen the effect,
indeed you can tune the circuit to flat at 20KHz and very gentle roll
off beyond this point by selecting the best value for this resistor...
say around 3Kohm max and 600 ohm minimum.
Having explained the nastyness of having capacitance hanging on a
tranformer coupled output... look what Neve did with a TO129... they
hung around 2 nanofarad directly across secondary, rather than the R/C
network on every other Neve transformer (the resistor on these dampens
the effect of the C).
It would have been a far smarter thing to have changed the value of
that capacitor.... after all, it's total value and effect depends on
the capacitance of the load applied to the module output, and to fit
an internal damping resistor... as done on the 3405.
On the topic of TO129, all those transformers were made by Marinair
Radar and I know for a fact that "latter day copiers" have major grief
reproducing it because of the difficulty in squeezing that extra
winding onto an already crowded small bobbin. I have heard horror
stories on this matter and personally don't know why anyone should be
bothering to recreate it. I'd leave the feedback off and wire the
module like a 3405... noting that the gain setting resistors need
changing to compensate for the lack of extra feedback.
This only applies to copiers... if you have a regular Neve console
with modules fitted with a TO129, just sweep the output and adjust for
best response. " -Geoff Tanner
Rob, perhaps you can use this info to sneak a peek inside these, you know, to make sure they have them set-up properly :wink: .
The only other consequencial differences between the 31105 design and the 1081 that I am aware of is the use of different inductors in the mid bands, same type, just different values, I believe. Oh yeah, and BA4xx modules throughout instead of BA3xx blocks.
Rob, if you can have a look inside one I'd be interested to know if my assumptions are accurate or not.
Peace,
JC
JC
It may be difficult to sneak a look in this instant. I only met this particular client for the first time on this visit. If I manage to get to know the guy a bit better I will see what I can do.
It may be difficult to sneak a look in this instant. I only met this particular client for the first time on this visit. If I manage to get to know the guy a bit better I will see what I can do.
I am resurrecting this article because maybe ruffrecords or someone can help me find Steve Butterworth for a gig I have for him. All of the contact info I have for him is dead.
I will put a pretty bow on the thread as well:
I worked with Steve in Herts at the time he was designing the PAST EQ. His meta project was rebuilding one of the Hansa desks for a US client. I was assistant. Meldreth just up the road from the Neve factory and Shemp Associates. Steve was always associated with Shep, and he hated that because his standards were always at the level of Neve. He accepted nothing less.
The PAST module is an exact copy of the 1081 EQ down to the same women making the internal wiring looms. The only difference is the PCB size, the output level pot, and the added meter which had a 406 for the meter driver. It is the first re-creation of the module that now lives in multitudes of forms. He made a run of 100 units overlapping the end of the Hansa gig.
During that job Neve downsized their large Melbourne facility and sold all the remaining 80 series parts. The knobs on the PAST are NOS Neve. He had St. Ives make all of the transformers to original spec. All the same RS and Mullard components, and the Micro Electronics transistors were still available at the time so all the 406, 438, and 440 amps are exact to the originals.
He got so deep in the re-build of the Hansa console that he had all the necessary suppliers in place- PCB, metalwork, painting, screening, module assembly, testing in place that it was a no-brainer to make rack EQ's. Still a major feat for a cottage biz in 1988, but he knew to go back to all the vendors that had made the original consoles. Now builders here are doing the same spec and the results are amazing!
The console we built is a super 8078 with a killer monitoring section, 72 channels of GML automation including automated AUXes, full inserts on the monitor section (the monitor modules were completely redesigned), and tape ready/rec indicators on the meter bridge.
Mike
I will put a pretty bow on the thread as well:
I worked with Steve in Herts at the time he was designing the PAST EQ. His meta project was rebuilding one of the Hansa desks for a US client. I was assistant. Meldreth just up the road from the Neve factory and Shemp Associates. Steve was always associated with Shep, and he hated that because his standards were always at the level of Neve. He accepted nothing less.
The PAST module is an exact copy of the 1081 EQ down to the same women making the internal wiring looms. The only difference is the PCB size, the output level pot, and the added meter which had a 406 for the meter driver. It is the first re-creation of the module that now lives in multitudes of forms. He made a run of 100 units overlapping the end of the Hansa gig.
During that job Neve downsized their large Melbourne facility and sold all the remaining 80 series parts. The knobs on the PAST are NOS Neve. He had St. Ives make all of the transformers to original spec. All the same RS and Mullard components, and the Micro Electronics transistors were still available at the time so all the 406, 438, and 440 amps are exact to the originals.
He got so deep in the re-build of the Hansa console that he had all the necessary suppliers in place- PCB, metalwork, painting, screening, module assembly, testing in place that it was a no-brainer to make rack EQ's. Still a major feat for a cottage biz in 1988, but he knew to go back to all the vendors that had made the original consoles. Now builders here are doing the same spec and the results are amazing!
The console we built is a super 8078 with a killer monitoring section, 72 channels of GML automation including automated AUXes, full inserts on the monitor section (the monitor modules were completely redesigned), and tape ready/rec indicators on the meter bridge.
Mike
ruffrecords
Well-known member
sodderboy said:
Steve is on the Neve 'old boys' email contact list. The last one I received was in 2009 when his email was given as:
[email protected]
If this does not work, let me know, and I will contact the Neve email list administrator and ask if he has a more up to date email for Steve.
Cheers
Ian
Thanks Ian!
That is the address I had and it is dead. Any contact you can find is appreciated.
Mike
That is the address I had and it is dead. Any contact you can find is appreciated.
Mike
ruffrecords
Well-known member
sodderboy said:
OK, I have emailed Robin Ireland the list admin for Neve. I'll let you know when I hear from him.
Cheers
Ian
From what i understood he lives somewhere in Norfolk now.
ruffrecords
Well-known member
Rob Flinn said:
That could be handy because that's where I live now.
Cheers
Ian
ruffrecords
Well-known member
I just a got a reply from Robin Ireland to say he does not have any more up to date contact info of Steve Butterworth. He did say that he thought Steve had gone to the USA and suggested contacting Geoff Tanner.
Cheers
Ian
Cheers
Ian
