Power issue still killing me. Please keep it simple stupid.

[Skiroy]

I have been suspecting and paranoid of power problems ruining my equipment. I know there is nothing that would protect my stuff from a lightning strike. So no matter what  that is a risk correct?

Okay as far as all my stuff being on when there is a storm and the power cuts on and off this is not good for electronics and the only solution to this is a battery backup system thats would keep power going to my stuff in this event,but I would turn my stuff off in any kind of storm but of course this could happen un suspected too. But the real thing that I am concerned with is voltage fluctuations as fasr as spikes/surges and sags.

So please just simple answers here for the following questions because I am not an electrician. And by the way the main reason why I am asking these questions YET AGAIN is because we recently had a storm. I ALWAYS unplug everything everytime I hear thunder which is a huge pain in my a$$ being in Florida. Well this one time I didnt and everything was turned off. And I have surge protect on my houses main power in from the power company. I have surge protection power strips which then go to furman power conditioners. I though I was safe. My Mother in Law in formed me the power shut on and off 2 times which isnt uncommon around here.

To make a long story short. I went to use my Mini Moog Voyager and it is screwed. I have had other things screwy go on with equipment which I cant prove it was power related but this is proof.  And I am completely fed up with this question. If it was a spike or surge related problem something should have tripped some freaking where.

So here are the questions.

1. In the event that all my stuff is turned off and I get a spike or surge will this deffinately protect it?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230620324454?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_500wt_716

2.I know this doesnt have a battery in it but in the event that my power were to switch on and off with my equipment on,what would this constant voltage transformer do? It would basically be the same effect on my equipment if I didnt have it at all right because there is no battery?


3. I know this Constant Voltage Transformer will keep the voltage from fluctuating (spikes/sags) while I have constant power going to it but does a battery back up do the same thing too with or without voltage going to it? In other words do common PC battery back ups also act as constant voltage transformers to buffer the voltage from sags and spikes?

 

[sahib]

1. I am going by the name and assuming that it is an AC regulator. In which case it will not protect your equipment unless it has surge protection in its input.

2. On the basis of it being a voltage regulator it will act on voltage dips (sags) and rises but it will do nothing to drop outs. When that happens it will be as if it was never there.

3. Here you need the basics of uninterruptable power supplies. There is a mega amount of info on the internet and I suggest you dig into them.

However, for complete isolation from the mains supply what you need is a double conversion true on line type. In this type AC is first converted to DC, this DC charges the battery,  the battery output is converted back to AC and supplied to your equipment. Most expensive, costly maintenance but total security.

 

[seavote]

"I have had other things screwy go on with equipment which I cant prove it was power related but this is proof.  And I am completely fed up with this question. If it was a spike or surge related problem something should have tripped some freaking where."

im no electrician.  but...to start  i would check all the outlets in my studio with a circuit tester

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&cp=11&gs_id=16&xhr=t&q=circuit+tester&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1600&bih=749&wrapid=tljp1322271495851016&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=16803103713204700951&sa=X&ei=DkPQToy4O-X30gGb-cFA&sqi=2&ved=0CIQBEPICMAE#

there are a number of incorrect ways to hook up an outlet that will still allow it to work.
im not recommending a particular brand of tester. just using the link so you see what im talking about. good luck
8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

 

[Skiroy]

1. I am going by the name and assuming that it is an AC regulator. In which case it will not protect your equipment unless it has surge protection in its input.

2. On the basis of it being a voltage regulator it will act on voltage dips (sags) and rises but it will do nothing to drop outs. When that happens it will be as if it was never there.

3. Here you need the basics of uninterruptable power supplies. There is a mega amount of info on the internet and I suggest you dig into them.

However, for complete isolation from the mains supply what you need is a double conversion true on line type. In this type AC is first converted to DC, this DC charges the battery,  the battery output is converted back to AC and supplied to your equipment. Most expensive, costly maintenance but total security.

So will a Battery backup keep my equipment at a constant voltage during sags and spikes also?

And do the common ones you buy for PCs also have built in surge protectors?

 

[sahib]

O.k. ups basics.

Firstly all ups' feature surge protection in the mains input by employing MOVs (Metal Oxide Varistor) mostly immediately after the IEC. MOV is a voltage dependent device with a threshold. When this threshold is reached it starts to conduct and shorts the voltage spike/surge before it gets the chance to get into the equipment. So the protection from spikes/surges have nothing to do with battery back-up.

Sags and drop outs are when you need a battery back-up so that when any of it happens on the mains supply the battery back-up kicks in and the constant output is maintained.

Line interactive type (generally the cheap ones for PCs etc.) monitors the mains supply, if any of these events occurs, it switches onto the battery back up to maintain a constant output. However, two things to consider here. First, this switching happens in a finite time therefore there will be a glitche on the output. Second, the switching is done by a relay and there will be contact clicks. So these cheap line interactive ones might be o.k. when you are surfing the internet but they have no place in a recording environment.

On line type provides electronic regulation during sags but again switches onto the battery back-up during drop outs. In high quality ups' this switch over is very smooth but nevertheless still there is a glitche. You have to check it with the manufacturer and if possible try to see if it is significant during your recording.

On both of the above types you have no isolation from the mains (except during a drop out and you have no mains at that point anyway). So the final type is the double conversion that I explained before. In this one the output is totally isolated from the input.

 

[Balijon]

O.k. ups basics.

On both of the above types you have no isolation from the mains (except during a drop out and you have no mains at that point anyway). So the final type is the double conversion that I explained before. In this one the output is totally isolated from the input.

Only if you apply an isolation transformer, you will have a isolated / floating power. Double-Conversion UPS's transfer from AC to DC and from DC to AC, but they are still electrically connected as a chain.

In real live, the quality of regulation and storage capacity will determine how dominant power-sags and peaks will show. Current computer switched-power-supplies are very efficient and very quick to reacting to input variations they can operate in a wide input range (80V-250V AC), most power-supplies will cover a 20ms outage (which is 98-99% from all mains-problems anyway).

All switching power-supplies and UPS's will introduce harmonics and distortion in the power-lines (like a light-dimmer) and have a negative power-factor. Isolation transformers and (active) harmonic filters can improve this.
If you strap a good power-analyzer (like a Fluke 435) to your incoming power-lines you will not be happy in most cases.
A good double-conversion UPS with a power-factor of 1 and a Isolation transformer, will provide you a relative clean feed. But you will be polluting it if you attach equipment with with switched-power-supplies (like your DAW etc....). So if you really want to address this, use different feeds...
In most cases power-line pollution is not the problem (your power-supply will provide adequate isolation), but you need to prevent that your ground gets polluted.

Theo

 

[sahib]

O.k. ups basics.

On both of the above types you have no isolation from the mains (except during a drop out and you have no mains at that point anyway). So the final type is the double conversion that I explained before. In this one the output is totally isolated from the input.

Only if you apply an isolation transformer, you will have a isolated / floating power. Double-Conversion UPS's transfer from AC to DC and from DC to AC, but they are still electrically connected as a chain.

All depends on the product and that is why you have to consult the manufacturer. A lot of products are sold as on line but in reality they are glorified line interactive. What you are saying above refers to on line type not the true double conversion.

Isolation transformer will not isolate you from the mains in the way we want to be. It will float you and that is all. You do not have a direct AC link between the input and output on a true double conversion. Once the AC is conditioned and converted into DC there is no more of an AC link. All you are doing is charging the battery periodically.

 

[sodderboy]

I have done this for people way at the edge of the grid with a lot of trees and lightning friendly points between them and the generator:
UPS on computer and DAW equipment
Autotransformer or "power leveler" on everything else
Trip-shunt breakers on the whole shebang.  There are a few different versions of these; ask an electrician.  I like the self-contained type that trips when it loses power.  I put them in a sub-panel for a studio.  Small studios with only one circuit can DIY with 120 VAC coil AC contactors.

The "levelers" like the Sola will help with the brown-outs where the voltage sags and peaks. 
The trip-shunt shuts-down a circuit or a box when you lose power, and keeps it off until you reset it.  You save your files, turn everything off, reset the breaker, and power-up again.  The trip-shunt is also good for studios that leave things on unattended for long periods of time.

With that setup, imagine that you are working with a DAW and a couple racks of equipment, say 12 amps worth of stuff.  A Furman or Monster leveler will keep your voltage constant through small power sags and subsequent surges.  The power then goes off for 2 seconds and back on.  All your equipment would stay off except your computer and DAW until you save files and turn them off.  Then you can make the decision if you want to reset everything and power-up again or call it a night.
Mike

 

[Balijon]

O.k. ups basics.

On both of the above types you have no isolation from the mains (except during a drop out and you have no mains at that point anyway). So the final type is the double conversion that I explained before. In this one the output is totally isolated from the input.

Only if you apply an isolation transformer, you will have a isolated / floating power. Double-Conversion UPS's transfer from AC to DC and from DC to AC, but they are still electrically connected as a chain.

All depends on the product and that is why you have to consult the manufacturer. A lot of products are sold as on line but in reality they are glorified line interactive. What you are saying above refers to on line type not the true double conversion.

no you are not correct, I was revering to true double conversion here.

Isolation transformer will not isolate you from the mains in the way we want to be. It will float you and that is all. You do not have a direct AC link between the input and output on a true double conversion. Once the AC is conditioned and converted into DC there is no more of an AC link. All you are doing is charging the battery periodically.

It depends what you define as 'Isolation'...
AC from DC powered Inverters create a new waveform that is as good and clean as the distortion from the inverters (including all the harmonic distortion and pollution they add...). They are not to be considered a 'clean' source only more stable.
Isolation transformers in combination with active harmonic filters provide a floating and clean source and can actively mitigate harmonic distortion and pollution.
For many applications that we work for, this floating and clean isolation is needed for various reasons (like medical equipment).

grT

 

[sahib]

O.k. ups basics.

On both of the above types you have no isolation from the mains (except during a drop out and you have no mains at that point anyway). So the final type is the double conversion that I explained before. In this one the output is totally isolated from the input.

Only if you apply an isolation transformer, you will have a isolated / floating power. Double-Conversion UPS's transfer from AC to DC and from DC to AC, but they are still electrically connected as a chain.

All depends on the product and that is why you have to consult the manufacturer. A lot of products are sold as on line but in reality they are glorified line interactive. What you are saying above refers to on line type not the true double conversion.

no you are not correct, I was revering to true double conversion here.

I do not have any schematics in front of me and I don't have the time to search the internet for it at the moment. But I would not imagine that the mains AC would be stepped down for DC conversion by using a resistor divider. Surely a transformer would be the best way to do it. In which case you already have a galvanic isolation and I don't see the point of having an isolation transfromer before that.

It depends what you define as 'Isolation'...
AC from DC powered Inverters create a new waveform that is as good and clean as the distortion from the inverters (including all the harmonic distortion and pollution they add...). They are not to be considered a 'clean' source only more stable.
Isolation transformers in combination with active harmonic filters provide a floating and clean source and can actively mitigate harmonic distortion and pollution.
For many applications that we work for, this floating and clean isolation is needed for various reasons (like medical equipment).
grT

You brushed off all the good quality products out there with harmonic filters etc in a single stroke. There are not too special double conversions with less than 3% distortion on the output. 

That is why I said consult the manufacturer.

 

[Skiroy]

I have done this for people way at the edge of the grid with a lot of trees and lightning friendly points between them and the generator:
UPS on computer and DAW equipment
Autotransformer or "power leveler" on everything else
Trip-shunt breakers on the whole shebang.  There are a few different versions of these; ask an electrician.  I like the self-contained type that trips when it loses power.  I put them in a sub-panel for a studio.  Small studios with only one circuit can DIY with 120 VAC coil AC contactors.

The "levelers" like the Sola will help with the brown-outs where the voltage sags and peaks. 
The trip-shunt shuts-down a circuit or a box when you lose power, and keeps it off until you reset it.  You save your files, turn everything off, reset the breaker, and power-up again.  The trip-shunt is also good for studios that leave things on unattended for long periods of time.

With that setup, imagine that you are working with a DAW and a couple racks of equipment, say 12 amps worth of stuff.  A Furman or Monster leveler will keep your voltage constant through small power sags and subsequent surges.  The power then goes off for 2 seconds and back on.  All your equipment would stay off except your computer and DAW until you save files and turn them off.  Then you can make the decision if you want to reset everything and power-up again or call it a night.
Mike

Okay I like your language. I was afraid of yet another over my head debate which leaves me no where and again not knowing what to do.
But I understand where your going.

1. So the UPS does supply constant voltage during spikes and sags,but there IS a relay time for this to happen so will my equipment have a moment of a sag still?

2.Does the leveler like the Sola isolate the surge/spike like a UPS or does it have a surge protector in it? I would like something that never lets the sag or spike reach my equipment even for a split second.

3. I dont understand the debate between a on line vs interactive UPS vs double. Can you just post a link to something that I can buy for my DAW equipment?

4. And it is correct to assume there is no protect from lightning strikes?

 

[sodderboy]

1. So the UPS does supply constant voltage during spikes and sags,but there IS a relay time for this to happen so will my equipment have a moment of a sag still?

2.Does the leveler like the Sola isolate the surge/spike like a UPS or does it have a surge protector in it? I would like something that never lets the sag or spike reach my equipment even for a split second.

3. I dont understand the debate between a on line vs interactive UPS vs double. Can you just post a link to something that I can buy for my DAW equipment?

4. And it is correct to assume there is no protect from lightning strikes?

1. Yes for the standard big box store UPS.  No for the high-end models that are always running from a battery as mentioned previously.

2. First, a UPS does not specifically reduce a spike.  A MOV surge protector inside, if there is one, does that.  The UPS only provides power when the line goes dead.  Most Solas do NOT have MOV protection inside.  You can get the MOV in high quality power strips, or there are large "whole house" versions that install in your electrical panel.  Two voltage regulators that I use in bad power installations, Monster AVS2000 and Furman AR20 also have surge protection.

3.  The best units provide 120 AC from a battery all the time.  The other type is connected to the AC line, and switches over to the battery when it detects a sag in the line, the quicker the better.  No need to worry about harmonics n' junk because the power died BAM!, a take is ruined or a mix is stopped and all you want to do back-up your work and be in control of the DAW power-down.  There is no single link.  I mentioned two power regulators.  Add-up the consumption of your DAW and get a Tripplite or APS UPS that is over-rated by at least 40%.  Don't know what a "double" is.

4.  Even if you have a huge tower with ham antennas and a lightning rod on it at your house lightning can still affect your world through the power.  Best to add some protection and not qvell over it.

Do you have all sorts of power problems?  The early recommendations regarding a solid AC/grounding backbone are most important.  If you are getting sags because the wiring is poor or mis-wired then that needs to be sussed and fixed first.  It's a symptom vs. cause thang.  If it is stormy in Panama City where your juice is sagging, peaking, blacking on-off-on etc. with every storm then I would recommend doing four things: have an electrician check your wiring first, install a "whole-house" MOV*, and a trip-shunt breaker on at least the studio circuit.  Add TV and other computer circuits if you want.  Consider a voltage regulator for the studio.  And put a UPS on every computer and HDTV in the house.  They are not expensive considering the replacement value of said items.
If you are running an A-list place there where down-time is not an option, then I would go off-grid with a battery powered system charged by the grid and/or sun, and a back-up generator.   
Mike
* one thing to know about MOV surge protectors is that they degrade with every spike.  So if you are hit a lot

 

[Skiroy]

1. So the UPS does supply constant voltage during spikes and sags,but there IS a relay time for this to happen so will my equipment have a moment of a sag still?

2.Does the leveler like the Sola isolate the surge/spike like a UPS or does it have a surge protector in it? I would like something that never lets the sag or spike reach my equipment even for a split second.

3. I dont understand the debate between a on line vs interactive UPS vs double. Can you just post a link to something that I can buy for my DAW equipment?

4. And it is correct to assume there is no protect from lightning strikes?

1. Yes for the standard big box store UPS.  No for the high-end models that are always running from a battery as mentioned previously.

2. First, a UPS does not specifically reduce a spike.  A MOV surge protector inside, if there is one, does that.  The UPS only provides power when the line goes dead.  Most Solas do NOT have MOV protection inside.  You can get the MOV in high quality power strips, or there are large "whole house" versions that install in your electrical panel.  Two voltage regulators that I use in bad power installations, Monster AVS2000 and Furman AR20 also have surge protection.

3.  The best units provide 120 AC from a battery all the time.  The other type is connected to the AC line, and switches over to the battery when it detects a sag in the line, the quicker the better.  No need to worry about harmonics n' junk because the power died BAM!, a take is ruined or a mix is stopped and all you want to do back-up your work and be in control of the DAW power-down.  There is no single link.  I mentioned two power regulators.  Add-up the consumption of your DAW and get a Tripplite or APS UPS that is over-rated by at least 40%.  Don't know what a "double" is.

4.  Even if you have a huge tower with ham antennas and a lightning rod on it at your house lightning can still affect your world through the power.  Best to add some protection and not qvell over it.

Do you have all sorts of power problems?  The early recommendations regarding a solid AC/grounding backbone are most important.  If you are getting sags because the wiring is poor or mis-wired then that needs to be sussed and fixed first.  It's a symptom vs. cause thang.  If it is stormy in Panama City where your juice is sagging, peaking, blacking on-off-on etc. with every storm then I would recommend doing four things: have an electrician check your wiring first, install a "whole-house" MOV*, and a trip-shunt breaker on at least the studio circuit.  Add TV and other computer circuits if you want.  Consider a voltage regulator for the studio.  And put a UPS on every computer and HDTV in the house.  They are not expensive considering the replacement value of said items.
If you are running an A-list place there where down-time is not an option, then I would go off-grid with a battery powered system charged by the grid and/or sun, and a back-up generator.   
Mike
* one thing to know about MOV surge protectors is that they degrade with every spike.  So if you are hit a lot

1. I dont see anything in the Monster about noise and harmonic distortion filters. Does it also have these filters like the furman? Is the Monster and furman equivalent?

2. I know you said surge protectors wear out over time so If I put a surge protector power strip in front of these units you suggest, so the strips catch the surge before the power conditioners, that should keep them from wearing out right? Regardless of the surge protector function does the act of regulating sags and over voltage also give these things a shelf life as well or are they good for many years in that department?

2. I know why spikes and sags are bad but why drop outs? It is the same as turning my power amp on and off every day right? Or do Drop outs usually occur with sags and spikes?

3. I have read some various articles about UPS and how they can add noise to your DAW. What do you say on this? I am not concerned with a "gliche" or click that would happen during a sag or spike because I am a home studio and a lost take is not the end of the world. Loosing equipment is. But a constant noise issue introduced on my DAW would be a concern.

4. Finally, do you know of any large Power conditioner units that contain, Voltage regulation,Surge suppression and noise/harmonic distortion filters that can be hard wired between my breaker box and my room so I can supply the whole room with safe, steady, clean, quiet power?

Also because I would be plugging in my UPS units into a regulated supply I heard that this would make the UPS circuitry and Batteries last longer because then would only have to switch on when a drop out occurs and can save its battery life by not having to deal with voltage fluctuations?

 

[sodderboy]

Please describe your specific problems, measured, experienced, and or perceived before we go any further.
I am a bit consumed doing the same thing for a client at the moment.
Mike

 

[Skiroy]

Please describe your specific problems, measured, experienced, and or perceived before we go any further.
I am a bit consumed doing the same thing for a client at the moment.
Mike

Well I have had equipment just "GO" for "No reason" like I have mentioned. As far as measured right now my outlets say 124.5V but unless I sit with a multimeter in the wall everday and watch it I have no way of knowing if or when sags and overvoltage occurs. As far as spikes I have a surge arrestor on my houses main but I have read that those only protect from large hits and not smaller transients.

The main issue I can be a witness to is alot of drop outs. I am looking into that breaker you suggested and UPS and power conditioners to cover all basis.

I understand that I am asking alot of questions here but this has been an issue for a while and the only reason I havent done anything about is because everytime I would try to understand what to get or what to do I would hit a brickwall with confusion about what I need for every situation. I am not going to waste time and money for something I thought protected my equipment and it doesnt.

Like I already have done with 4 Furman, "Power Conditioners" that at this point I understand are nothing but glorified power strips.

I know I am asking alot of questions but this keeps happening. I get some questions answered but then I run into a dead. I mean this is my 3rd thread I started regarding this because I may get 1 or 2 posters but then interest is lost and then I will leave knowing alittle more but still not enough to fully tackle this complex issue.So if you could just please bear with me and answer the above questions I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[leadbreath]

most modern day good quality consumer standalone ups systems will cover most of your needs (power failure/voltage sags/transients) it just depends on how big u want to go. the only problem with most ups systems is the noise issue thats not a problem in most cases but in audio aplications it will be a factor.
i would put some secondary power conditioning/filtering in the line, i havent used the furman types before so i dont really know how effective they are, but it wont be too difficult to source some kind.
as for lightning, as soon as i hear the slightest rumle of thunder, the plug literally gets pulled and party is over.

 

[leadbreath]

after 2 minutes of googling i found this:

http://www.apc.com/products/apcav/index.cfm

dont know the price but it looks allright.

 

[sodderboy]

1. Check the specs of each.  The Furman is very basic and does two things well- line regulation within spec and filtering.  The Monster adds power sequencing and monitoring.  Neither will help you with a full drop out.

2. Your panel Surge suppressor is already doing the job, so no power strips needed.  Not sure how to test MOV's for their available life.

2. You answered your own question.  The drop outs are not the problem, they are the symptom of power problems that include all of the above.  They are switching power around the grid, and there is more going on than a simple OFF-ON.

3. I answered this already.  The UPS that fits your needs is always connected to the line, unless the line goes below 105 volts or so.  It is only generating harmonics when the power is out, the UPS is active, and you are in save the files mode.  Who cares about harmonics?

4. No.  Solutions are most always custom tailored to the client's needs.  No single box that I know of, except a solar system or generator, but even then you have to filter the line from harmonics, and you would still want to have a UPS on your DAW in the case of a malfunction.  You are better served by designing an a l a carte solution from elements described previously.

5. It should, but not by much.  The batteries die over time even if a UPS is rarely called upon.

Check out Art Kelm.  Read everything on his site, it's great info.

Mike

 

[Skiroy]

1. Check the specs of each.  The Furman is very basic and does two things well- line regulation within spec and filtering.  The Monster adds power sequencing and monitoring.  Neither will help you with a full drop out.

2. Your panel Surge suppressor is already doing the job, so no power strips needed.  Not sure how to test MOV's for their available life.

2. You answered your own question.  The drop outs are not the problem, they are the symptom of power problems that include all of the above.  They are switching power around the grid, and there is more going on than a simple OFF-ON.

3. I answered this already.  The UPS that fits your needs is always connected to the line, unless the line goes below 105 volts or so.  It is only generating harmonics when the power is out, the UPS is active, and you are in save the files mode.  Who cares about harmonics?

4. No.  Solutions are most always custom tailored to the client's needs.  No single box that I know of, except a solar system or generator, but even then you have to filter the line from harmonics, and you would still want to have a UPS on your DAW in the case of a malfunction.  You are better served by designing an a l a carte solution from elements described previously.

5. It should, but not by much.  The batteries die over time even if a UPS is rarely called upon.

Check out Art Kelm.  Read everything on his site, it's great info.

Mike

Okay I am going to do the trip shunt breaker  and a UPS on my DAW equipment. And I have surge protection on my house mains and all my power strips and furmans in my room should cover spikes.

The last issue and question is
1. Wouldnt it be better,more convienient and easier to hard wire a Contant volatge transformer at my breaker for the whole room vs adding 4-5 more Big power conditioners like the monster that I dont even have room for?

I mean something like this
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sola-23-22-150-Harmonic-Neutralized-Transformer-CVS-500-/150704309427?pt=BI_Circuit_Breakers_Transformers&hash=item2316ad44b3

Im assuming the Harmonic nuetralization and it being completely away from my room that it would cover all noise issue?

But last question.