Power Supply for Carbon Mic

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CompEq

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
18
I recently picked up an Electro-Voice Model 75 Carbon mic.  This is my first carbon mic and I'm very excited to have something to tinker with and use for a "lo-fi" effect.  I found a few schematics online, but need help (oh, so much help!) in adapting one to this mic.  I've attached the spec sheets that came with the mic and although it is described how to power the mic, I don't fully understand it and there seems to be a lot left out for a novice such as myself.  Other attachments to follow.

P.S. If you're not logged in, you won't see the attachments
 

Attachments

  • electro voice model 75.pdf
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Here I've attached the schematic I found and would like to base the power supply off of.  I'd rather not go with a transformer and would prefer a blocking capacitor, thus my tendency toward this particular schematic.
 

Attachments

  • Carbon Mic Power Supply 2.jpg
    Carbon Mic Power Supply 2.jpg
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This third attachment is my attempt at modifying the schematic to fit this mic.  The power supply voltage will differ as will the resistance of the load, so I don't know how to calclulate the values for the other components taking into account these other changes.


So far, I think:
Audio Output A = XLR Output Pin2
Audio Output B = XLR Output Pin3
Audio Output C = XLR Output Pin1
R1 = ???
R2 = ???
C1 = ???

So I'm pretty much thoroughly scratching my head.  Any help would be greatly appreciated!
 

Attachments

  • Carbon Mic Power Supply 4.pdf
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I'll offer what help I can with my limited experience. I just built a circuit for a phone handset (carbon mic). I sort of based it off the circuit from the Shure 104 manual website.

http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/tech_pubs/@global_managed/documents/webcontent/us_pro_104c_ug.pdf

The instructions pdf you posted gave a lot of info. 3-5 mA for close talk and 10-18 mA for normal use, and it has a resistance of 200 ohms and they suggest a 1.5V battery. For the Shure 104 it can operate fine at 50mA and can even handle 100mA, and they give a list of resistors to use for different voltages from 4.5V to 24V. My point is that the carbon mic can handle a wide range and it's really going to be up to you to decide what current to use.

I tested with current from about .05mA to 50+mA and I did not hear much difference in sound quality, although the carbon mic in the phone is fairly limited in response anyway. The amount of current really just determines level or volume. What I wound up doing was using a 9V and putting a 20K pot in with a 150 ohm resistor so I can vary the current to give the appropriate level to whatever device I'm going into. I guess that would be like the 100K pot in the schematic you posted. At 150 ohms I was at about 45mA and at 20K I was somewhere around .1mA (I can't remember exactly). Or, another way to put it, at 150 ohms I can go into my line input with a moderate gain setting and at 20K I can go into my mic input at a moderate gain setting. For the audio signal I connected from the carbon mic terminals to a transformer with a cap to block dc. and then the secondary connects to pin 2 and 3. Pin 1 is not connected.

So, it looks like your mic is a double button mic. I believe the unedited schematic you posted is for an a single button mic and has an unbalanced signal out, and the negative of the 1.5V is intended to go to ground which would create a circuit to provide power. Your mic has 3 wires, 1 from each button and ground (+, +, -).

Check out the diagram C of the dual button mic here. This is how the instruction pdf describes it, too.
http://www.tpub.com/content/armycomsystems/ss06036/ss060360023.htm

It looks like you are trying to adapt the schematic for the 3 wires. Both buttons need power and the instruction pdf says that the current to both buttons should be equal. In your edited schematic, you would be providing power to only one button.

Although my mic has only one button, here's the way I thought of it. Draw a figure 8 and put the carbon button at the intersection. So basically you have 2 loops each connecting to the + and - of the carbon button. Make one loop your power and the other loop your audio. So, for one loop, add a battery and resistor (or pot) to limit current. That's all you need for power. You don't want the current limiting resistor for the power to effect the audio signal, that's why I think of a separate loop. For the audio you just need a cap to block dc and a transformer. Connect the secondary of the transformer to pin 2 and pin 3. if you need a volume control, you can connect it after the transformer on the secondary. (That is also stated in your instruction pdf.) I have not tried it without the transformer, but I suppose you could give it a try and just hook it up the same way without the transformer and just use the cap to block dc.

A note about cap values. Recommended values I found were from .1uF to 20uF. But if too low then you can lose low end. So, better to stay up around 10-20uF. I chose 10uF because that's what I had.

So, how would you do it. You might try thinking about it in a similar way. What does it need for power. Take care of that first. Then where does the audio need to come from? When it comes to 2 buttons without using a transformer, I'm not sure. Perhaps someone else will have better info. Would you connect the two wires from the buttons to the + terminal and the ground to the - terminal of the battery and then get the audio from the + and - as well? Or, would you maybe hook up 2 batteries, 1 for each button, with the 2 button wires going to separate + terminals and the ground going to both - terminals of the batteries and the audio coming from the 2 + wires?

I hope it helps. Sorry I can't offer more.
 
I must admit the info on the brochure does make sense only if you already know!
The info on your second post is even more esoteric...
See attached.
R1 depends on the power voltage. For 10mA operation, you need 100R per volt of supply. Carbon mics are extremely tolerant on current. Lower current will yield lower sensitivity.
C depends on expected LF roll-off and preamp input Z. Using 10uF should make sure the dominant LF response will be that of mic. R2 is just there to shunt to ground leakage current. 10k to 100k should do. Too low may restrict LF response.

You may have to reverse polarity of the battery and cap, or swap pins 2 & 3 if you want the mic to be in accordance with standards, polarity-wise.
 

Attachments

  • carbon mic.jpg
    carbon mic.jpg
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Abbey Road, thanks for the great description and schematic. But, isn't your schematic for a single button mic? CompEQ has a double button mic. There are 3 wires coming from the mic. How would you modify it to work with a double button mic?
 
Awesome!

Just curious. Do you need to be careful about accidentally applying phantom power for both schematics? Can you explain why phantom would or wouldn't be a problem.

Thanks!
 
Joro,

I do plan on using a mic preamp rather than going directly to a line input.  Phantom power won't be a problem as I'll either be using it with pres that have no phantom power or ones where I can turn off phantom power.

Regarding the power requirements, the instruction sheet states:

"A large size 4 1/2 volt "C" Battery will provide several hundred hours service."

All of the C Batteries I know are only 1.5V.  Typo perhaps or do they really mean 4 1/2 Volts?
 
Abbey Road,

I've modified your schematic to add what I gather should be the correct values now.  Am I following you correctly?
 

Attachments

  • carbon mic AbbeyRoad4.JPG
    carbon mic AbbeyRoad4.JPG
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That should work somewhat. 1.5V is less than was probably intended originally; they used a larger voltage because it gave more sensitivity to the mic, and that put less demand on the preamp. But today low-noise amplification is easy.
 
Okay, then it looks like I'm at least on the right track now.  So if I use a 4.5V power supply, I use 450 Ohm resistors instead of 150 Ohm.  The other component values stay the same?
 
The 1.5V with 150 ohm resistors will probably give you current on the low end of what they recommend (near 3mA), but as I said before, these values can vary. Maybe try a 9V battery with 1K resistor. That should get you a little more current (maybe around 6-7mA). If you stick a multimeter in there and measure the current, you can try lots of different values and see the amount of current and figure out what is going to work best for you.

I'm still curious about whether phantom would cause any problems. Does anyone have an answer for me?

Thanks!
 
Joro,

Thanks for all of the help and info!  I still have a lot to learn, but I really appreciate the depth you've gone into with this for me.

Would putting in a diode bridge solve your phantom power problem?

I hope to have this at least breadboarded pretty soon.  At lease then I'll be able to see if the mic still works!  Here's a cleaned up version of the schematic.  Thanks, AbbeyRoad!
 

Attachments

  • carbon mic AbbeyRoad6.JPG
    carbon mic AbbeyRoad6.JPG
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Update ---

The mic works!!!  The noise floor is high but other than that it gives me the lo-fi goodness I was hoping it would.  The noise floor issue could have something to do with the low quality parts I used, but this was just a quick and dirty prototype to see if it works.  Abbey Road, thanks again for drawing up the schematic!  Joro, you were dead on about those resistors.  I used the 900 Ohm ones (for R-1 and R-2) with the 9V battery and the output volume is fine.

Later on, I'll order higher quality parts and swap out different resistor values to see what difference that makes and to see if it's worth it to put in a multi-position switch for fine tuning.  Thank you both so much!!!
 
Great! Glad to hear everything is working. Carbon mic's can be pretty noisy. My mic is noisy, too. I doubt that upgrading the components is going to do anything, but let me know if you hear a difference.
 
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