Power Transformers and Current

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adamasd

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2004
Messages
472
Location
Duluth MN
What are the determining factors in a power transformer that set the max current. I assume the thickness of the wire used would limit current, but I am sure there is more to it then just this. Is there anyways to figure out how much current an unknown power transformer can handle? I can not see how you could, but I do not understand transformers well enough. or should I just stick with my standard practice of increasing current draw untill the transformer starts to heat up then back off?

adam
 
I think PRR had a watt per pound figure a while back.
What do you want to light up?
 
Right now I am just building a 6S4a amplifier with a 6CG7 preamp, Just a small 2 watt power amp. I would be amazed if the power transformer could not handle this load, I am just currious. The power end of things is a huge gap in my electronics knowledge and I am working towards filling it in now. I have quite a few transformers that I have no info on, haveing some idea of the current handling ability would be nice for planning future projects.

adam
 
Small (under 100VA) transformers are limited by regulation. Load the output until the voltage drops 10%; that should be safe. Down around 10VA you may be OK sucking-down 20%.

Large (over 100VA) transformers under steady load are heat-limited. Put a likely load on it and see if it gets hot. It may take hours for a large core to cook all the way through. The temperature in the middle of the winding can be much higher than the surface temperature. If it is too hot the varnish will carbonize and the transformer will short-out, which is not nice. A large core in intermittent duty like transistor Class AB audio power amp may be regulation-limited in normal use, and also heat-limited in test-tone or shaker-table work.

Seems to me 5VA per pound is an old rule of thumb, but that's 60 years old and some one-pounders today are rated much more than 5VA.
 
Most of my transformers are old ones, so the 5VAs per pound may work fine. At least it will give me a rough idea of what I can run on them.

Would just putting together a small bare bones power amp around a current hungry tube in fixed bias work well as a test for this. Increase the bias untill voltage drops 10% and use the bias current as the current rateing of the transformer. It seems this would get me pretty close. Or is there a better way to go about this?

thanks,
adam
 
One thing I do when I am in a hurry and also cost-challenged (as usual) is measure the cold winding resistances initially, then load the trafo and periodically disconnect and measure again. Plug in the tempco of copper and you have an average temp change.

You are getting a spatial average of the resistance change, so you need to assume some of the inner portions of the winding are hotter than the average. But if you look at the trajectory over maybe 20-30 minutes, for trafos of reasonable size like we would tend to use in here, you can see roughly what the slope behavior is and if you are likely going to get into trouble. You will probably be able to see roughly two time constants at work, the shorter from the copper and the longer from the core. Clearly, if the slope doesn't start to turn down after a while you are in trouble.

There's no substitute for really long-term worst-case testing, but to converge on the optimal solution without a complicated modeling program this approach is pretty decent.

From time to time I've considered schemes to measure the winding R in operation and use as a throttleback signal for the electronics (dealing with power amps here), but this gets hairy.
 
I think between yours and PRRs methode I should be able to always error on the side of caution while getting close enough to the transformers rateing without killing it. The tempco trick is very good to know, It will be very handy for testing some potted transformers that I have. I am not sure how well the potting is at transferring the heat from the winding, but I do not think I would want to run these even warm to the touch.

thanks,
adam
 
> when I am in a hurry... measure the cold winding resistances initially, then load the trafo and periodically disconnect and measure again. Plug in the tempco of copper and you have an average temp change.

How do you do it when you are NOT in a hurry???????

> measure the winding R

Yes, omitting the "in operation" part, that's a good first-guess. For 10VA-20VA windings, you want copper resistance no more than about 20% of load resistance (assuming a reference resistor load; we'll correct for rectifiers later). The secondary resistance can be measured directly (DVMs may not like high-Volt windings; use analog). You could measure the primary resistance and do math to reflect it to the secondary; in all practical situations you can assume the (reflected) primary resistance is similar to the secondary resistance, so just double the measured secondary resistance.

> I assume the thickness of the wire used would limit current

Usually not directly. Transformers can pass a LOT of current short-term: we are usually nowhere near the point that the wire melts instantly. The "12V 1.5A" transformer below can probably put 6 Amps into a short-circuit. Of course that's zero power in the "load", and 90 Watts of heat leading to 560 degree C temperature rise.... we can't do that for very long. Bigger transformers can dump relatively more short-circuit current, and at the 1,000VA size can do it for many-many seconds. (A good 10,000VA pole-transformer, rated 240V 40A, can probably dump well over 1,000A or 240,000VA for 5 or 10 seconds, except they are fused to protect the investment.)

> a current hungry tube

A) That's the hard way

B) Tubes suck DC; the transformer is AC

Use power resistors. An assortment of 10W resistors is cheaper than a cheap tube.

Example:

Transformer gives 15VAC no-load. Secondary resistance is 1Ω. Assume the (reflected) primary resistance is the same. Total resistance is 2Ω. This should be no more than 20% of load resistance, or load resistance should be at least four times higher than transformer total resistance. 4*2Ω= 8 ohms load. Output voltage drops just like a resistor voltage divider: 8Ω/(2Ω+8Ω)= 0.8 times the no-load voltage, 0.8*15V= 12V loaded. And now the AC current will be 12VAC/8Ω= 1.5 Amps AC. The heat dissipation inside the transformer is roughly 2Ω*1.5A^2 or 4.5 Watts. Such a transformer is probably 2"x2"x2", surface area 16 square inches. Taking 100 deg C per Watt per square inch, we have 100*4.5/16= 28 degree C temperature rise, not very hot.

That's the rating for AC resistive use, heaters or lamps. With the popular rectifier-capacitor method of making DC, the voltage goes up 1.4 times and the current flows in BIG spikes which cause more heating than you would expect. For DIY, the DC current should be no more than half of the AC current rating. So 1.5A AC, only pull 0.75A DC. (It is possible to derive a number like 0.6 or 0.8 and "prove" that you can run a little more DC. In practice, small transformers will sag too bad to allow pushing much past 0.5. And DIY should always be rounded-up, or else we might as well buy penny-pinched commercial gear.)
 
Wonderful, just what I needed. There are couple things I am still a little comfused on, but I am fairly certain I will be able to sort them out on my own.

Thanks,
adam
 
Is there any way to apply the 5VA/lb to transformers with multiple secondary windings?

I've got an old transformer with all the secondaries for a tube amp, 6.3V, 5V (which I don't need), and 270V. I'm just trying to figure out if it can handle the demands of my 6EM7 preamp. Hungry tube, for sure, wants 925ma heater and the first plate is sitting at 1.4ma, the second plate at 20ma.
 
Ha! I thought about it after I posted, and it weighs at least 5 lbs. so I'm sure it won't have any trouble delivering the juice.
 

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