question about input transformers

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

michal_k

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
370
Location
France
Hi,

I wondered what determines optimal resistance of an input transformer. Let's say I have a 200:50k trafo. That means that a turn ratio is about 16, right? Now why is it 200:50k and not 100:25k or any other numbers?
Is it the amount of turns(resistance of wire)? It can't be so big.

thanks for answers,

Michal
 
Ha, it is a tricky question indeed in terms of the impedance ratio vs turn ratio. But you do not design a transformer with that factor alone. When you take the maximum voltage that can be applied to the primary and the power levels that the transformer is expected to handle, the picture looks completely different.
 
Ok, so let's say I have to design a microphone input transformer. Which stage of design reveals that impedance thing? I've been through a trafo design book and don't remember seeing anything like that, but I must admit that it was a bit over my head yet so I could miss something.
 
Searching for 'transformer impedance' produces http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=8058.0 and http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=27403.0 . http://www.groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=467 might also be useful.

JDB.
 
thanks for the links. I guess I need to read my design handbook one more time bearing that one in mind.

one more question, In my book there are several theorytical chapters that show various calculations that depend on the kind of source/load impedance: for example transformers loaded with pure resistace and with capacitive source  or capacitive load - pure resistance source, and so on for all the combinations.
what kind of load are we working with when we talk about mic into preamp or preamp into eq.
can I assume that both, source and load are pure resistive? why/why not?

thanks,
Michal
 
michal_k said:
what kind of load are we working with when we talk about mic into preamp or preamp into eq.
can I assume that both, source and load are pure resistive? why/why not?

Well, moving coil mics are inductors plus resistance. Condensers often have output transformers, so same again, but others might be transformerless, and capacitor-coupled.....

But, you can design design transformers to work well with a range of sources. The impedance ratio designation can be varied when expressing (eg. 150:600 instead of 300:1200) but usually it will indicate what impedances the transformer was designed for - for instance, you might want a relatively high primary inductance on a transformer which is connected to high impedance sources.
 
Sorry, I just missed the "input" bit.

In this case it is about impedance matching between the source (microphone) and the load (amplifier).

But the microphones generally have lower output impedance and voltage level and that is why the input impedance of a microphone transformer will be lower. This may give you the same turns ratio of a transformer with higher input impedance which is designed for output coupling. You may certainly use that transformer in the place of a microphone transformer provided that it complies with the winding/shileding techniques that a microphone coupling requires. But you can not use a mic input transformer for output coupling. Because here the voltage and power levels that the transformer can handle come into play.





 
thanks again for your answers. i guess the only thing that left me is to design an input trafo and post my results to check if I understood everything correctly.
very well then, I'm gonna start tommorow after I (hopefully) pass my egzam.

F*ck microwaves.

Michal

 
> why is it 200:50k and not 100:25k or any other numbers?

It could be either. You'd have to squint a VTVM to know the difference.

It "could be" 2K:500K.... except the bass response would be poor and the treble response would be poor.

"Nominal impedance" must include broadband loss, frequency response and power considerations.

It isn't 2:500, because a "200 ohm: 50K" winding probably has 10 ohms and 2K5 copper resistance. Your input power would mostly heat the copper, not the load. In fact this is a way to guesstimate the rough ballpark of a winding. If the DCR is 10r, then it is more likely intended for few-K use than for 8 ohm or 50K ohm use. Use nominal impedances 10 to 20 times the DCR, it won't be utterly wrong.

Formulas for power transformer saturation, or audio tranny distortion, include voltage not power. You can hold voltage constant and reduce impedance to get a higher power rating... ah, but as you reduce impedance your DCR losses increase and eventually most of your power isn't getting through.

Let's arbitrarily say that your transformer is flat down to 50Hz. The primary inductance should be over 200 ohms impedance at 50Hz.

Now try to use it as 2K impedance. If the primary is 200 impedance at 50Hz, then it won't get to 2K impedance until 500Hz. If the source is 2K, the lower frequency limit is 500Hz. That may be acceptable in a cheap telephone coupler, not an all-round studio preamp.

The top end is more complicated. You have series leakage inductance and you have capacitance. There is capacitance in the winding, and your first tube has input capcitance. The leakage inductance is a little about how souped-up your iron is (hot iron needs fewer turns to make bass response, which means less leakage inductance), and also about how cleverly you interleave. This is between the designer and the accountant. The capacitance is less affected by number of turns, mostly by physical size. Hot iron helps somewhat. Clever winding helps some. But ultimately you can not reach high impedance at wide audio bandwidth, because capacitance bites.

12AX7 grid is infinite resistance (>100Meg) and ~~100pFd capacitance. One reason to use lower-Mu 12AY7 is the lower Miller effect and input capacitance. It could even allow a bit higher step-up before capactance bites, minimizing the loss of tube gain. But a practical size transformer has ~~100pFd self-capacitance, so mucking with the tube does not help a lot. Pentode has low input capacitance, but high hiss. You could use a very high step-up to swamp the hiss... ah, but that winding capacitance does not go away. Anyway a pentode has high gain, and coupled from a high step-up transformer, you will likely overload on large sounds.

Low-impedance is mostly "easy". You can design a decent 150:2K on the back of your phone bill. While you can use RDH4 to estimate leakage and capacitance, you can just go for a reasonable bass limit, wind it, and try it, probably with good result.

Transistor inputs are "usually" worked with high NFB so their input impedance is "high". (Could be low but you have to stand on your head to think that way.) But you don't design for high step-up, because BJTs have significant input noise current. There's an "optimum" impedance for low noise. Early Ge had narrow low optimums and you find some strange ratios, even step-down. The first clean Si devices were small, and optimum might be 2K-5K. Large clean Si can be adjusted (with emitter current) for OSI from below 500 to over 20K. Jensen's insight was that with ample Silicon he could wind the transformer 150:600 quadrifilar, get very low noise, and top-end far beyond the audio band.
 
sahib said:
Why f microwaves?

Have they beaten you up or something?

naaah, I've been learning about them all nights long for the previous two weeks. but I passed the egzam, we're cool again.

@PRR
thanks for your reply, not everything is clear for me now, but I'll try to do the design along with Cykin's book and I'll see if anything clears up.
One more question for now. From your post I assume that designing an input trafo I should consider capacitance of the first stage of an amplifier. Do I have to worry about any capacitance or inductance on the primary side other than from trafo itself? If I'm gonna plug different mics those parameters are going to change, aren't they?

 
I think your main question is how do you determine what Z to call your transformer/

It is a standard, which can be tweaked to suit the sales office guys.

I think it is set to the  point on the Freq Graph  at which the transformer drops 3 db off the low end.

So your Peerless Z is 500 ohms, that means 3 db at 10 hz.
UTC? Maybe 3 db at 20 Hz.
MaCintosh?
Maybe 3 db at 4 hz.
Triad? 2 db at 15 hz, right in between UTC and Peerless.
Hammond? 3 db at 100 hz.

Reactance Formula is Linear, so 2 Pi f L can be used to sort this out.
L is fixed by turns, so it can drop out with the 2 Pi constant, and you have

XL = F

So 200 ohms at 10 hz will be 400 ohms at 20 hz.
Pick your marketing strategy.



 
I made some calculations and that's what I got so far:

Rin = 150R
f3dbL = 15Hz
f3dbH = 25kHz
ML= -10dB // max distortion at 15Hz
MH= -20dB // max distortion at 25kHz
p= 1:8 // turns ratio
Cin = 100pF // capacitance of the first tube
Cself = 100pF // self cap. of transformer
Cm = 10pF // capacitance of connecting wires etc.

so after few calculations i have:

r1 = 15R // resistace of prim winding
r2= 960 // resistance of secondary winding

L1= 260mH // inductance of prim
Lr = 19mH // leakage inductance

do they look right to you guys?
now, I made all that calculations for one primary winding. Does it mean that I have to double r1 and L1 when I'm making a microphone, balanced tranny?


 
Yes, double the pri so you can get some more inductance.

It is a buyers market so you get two for one, that is, if you add another pri, you quadruple the 250 mH so you now have 1 H input.
But only twice the dcr, so  good deal.
Plus, you can humbuck the pri for low noise, a real treat for a mic input.


Leakage C will depend on which side of the transformer you are talking about.

It goes up with the ratio, so 8 times the C on the sec.
So figure 10 pf input C.
Notice the mic cable will add more C to the grid , as it gets multiplied also.

You can go thru catalogs, like the llundahl catalog, to get a feel for all the different flavor input transformer specs.
Or Jensen and Sowter.
Check them all out from cover to cover, and then the UTC and Triad stuff in the Meta, then you will get a feel for who uses what pri dcr, who has split coils, etc.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top