reference book sticky veer.

[Rattakat]

Please give this guy a big like. As a Dutch guy i am direct.

 

[Bo Deadly]

With this, i hope to clear out all questions whether this is legal or not.

If the content has a copyright statement, then it's copyrighted material. Even if it's not registered with the copyright office and even if doesn't have a copyright statement, it's inherently copyrighted under common law copyright. Mr Koster's response makes it very clear that he does not understand this. Writing a book takes a lot of time and effort. Many people's livelyhoods are derived almost entirely from copyright. I write software for a living. The music industry is grounded entirely on copyright. Think about all of the media that is being generated by not just companies but individuals now.

 

[Rattakat]

If the content has a copyright statement, then it's copyrighted material. Even if it's not registered with the copyright office and even if doesn't have a copyright statement, it's inherently copyrighted under common law copyright. Mr Koster's response makes it very clear that he does not understand this. Writing a book takes a lot of time and effort. Many people's livelyhoods are derived almost entirely from copyright. I write software for a living. The music industry is grounded entirely on copyright. Think about all of the media that is being generated by not just companies but individuals now.

For me, i want to cut this of. In my mind i don't care to much. Books from the past must be free. If we are going to a situation where books are for the elite new bright people can't learn and things come to an end. Some kind of piracy has to excist. Without us our hobby will die out.

 

[ccaudle]

Books from the past must be free

We should only have to pay for books from the future?

 

[scott2000]

We should only have to pay for books from the future?

Like the sports almanac we can use for betting?..lol

 

[Bo Deadly]

Without us our hobby will die out.

Realize that while a schematic drawing is copyrighted, the circuit is not. Only a "tangible form of expression" can be copyrighted. So while a schematic was created by an author (whether it be with a pencil and paper or with the assistance of schematic capture software), the particular arrangement of circuit components is not copyrightable.

Meaning copying a schematic drawing is infringement. But if you look at the schematic, understand it and then sit down and re-draw it in your own way, that is not infringement.

Unless ... the circuit components were arranged in exactly the same way. That might be construed as copyright infringement. This is where lawyers might start debating how "similar" or "dissimilar" the works are.

This is probably why Uli Behringer gets away with what many people feel is infringement. It's actually not.

 

[user 37518]

With this, i hope to clear out all questions whether this is legal or not.

Thanks Rattakat. It was great of you to contact the web admin, and also great that he replied. I am 100% sure there is no problem whatsoever with the older books, and probably none with the newer ones as well. I guess that it's more of a personal issue. Every time I see that a book is still being published and sold, I don't feel comfortable downloading it for free, but please take this with a grain of salt, I am very scrupulous and a bit OCD.

In any case, that is one great database you published, I will be making good use of it and I hope everyone here in the forum does as well. Thank you!

 

[user 37518]

We should only have to pay for books from the future?

I guess that what he is saying is that if a book is out of print and no one is making any more money from it, or loosing money if you download it for free, then there is no problem if you download it for free. It is not like music where someone is still receiving royalties, if the book is no longer in print, the only people making money out of it are the old book sellers who over price it. I've seen it countless times: old books, which are long out of print, the author is probably dead, and the book is being sold 10 fold what it used to cost. This is a good example: Microphone engineering handbook

 

[ccaudle]

if a book is out of print...then there is no problem if you download it for free.

That is a moral argument, not a legal argument. The (modern) international legal standard is that copyright is valid for the life of the author plus at least 50 years (Berne Convention). Current US law is life of the author plus 70 years.

However, the website administrator seemed to say the opposite of that, that the books are still in print:
"...all newer books come from the Internet, sometimes even from the publishers' own sites...."

Unless the copyright owner or administrator (i.e. publisher with valid rights to the work) has given permission to make copies elsewhere, it is technically a violation of the author or publishers copyright, i.e. right to control copies.

 

[user 37518]

That is a moral argument, not a legal argument. The (modern) international legal standard is that copyright is valid for the life of the author plus at least 50 years (Berne Convention). Current US law is life of the author plus 70 years.

However, the website administrator seemed to say the opposite of that, that the books are still in print:
"...all newer books come from the Internet, sometimes even from the publishers' own sites...."

Unless the copyright owner or administrator (i.e. publisher with valid rights to the work) has given permission to make copies elsewhere, it is technically a violation of the author or publishers copyright, i.e. right to control copies.

I understand, but who is exactly receiving a dime of an out of print book being sold by an antique librarian? And, if the author is dead, then what? In my opinion, if neither the publisher or the author is loosing or receiving money from a book, its fair game. As long as you do not expect to replicate it for profit and so on.

 

[Bo Deadly]

I understand, but who is exactly receiving a dime of an out of print book being sold by an antique librarian? And, if the author is dead, then what? In my opinion, if neither the publisher or the author is loosing or receiving money from a book, its fair game. As long as you do not expect to replicate it for profit and so on.

Transferring ownership of physical book is not copying. If you photocopy a book that is infringement. This is why a copy center will refuse to make copies from books and magazines.

If a copyright holder dies, their heirs inherit it like any other property (although the specifics depend on other factors like whether or not the copyright holder is an individual or company).

Your personal opinion will not change the judges interpretation of the law.

Profits derived from infringement are considered when calculating damages but it has no impact on being found responsible for infringing. In the worst case, the copyright holder could seek statutory damages which can be thousands of dollars per instance.

In practice, for a file sharing scenario like this, it is more likely that the publisher would ask for a relatively small settlement to forgive and forget. It is quite common for the parents of some kid sharing music files to get a letter with an offer to pay some amount like several thousand dollars or so. They provide a website link to submit payment by CC or bank transfer.

In the case of a site of books like this, I don't know what the settlement demand would be. But if it had say 20 books from one publisher, that might draw the attention of that publisher to demand a settlement that would presumably more than cover legal expenses which could easily be 10's of thousands of dollars I would think. And they would have to pay it. Otherwise they will sue and the legal costs to the accused would be many MANY times that amount. It's simple math. A big publisher can afford to sue and they have to profits to deduct legal expenses from their taxes.

Again, my opinion about all of this is that the world economy depends more on copyright than people realize and therefore it is in everyone's interest that copyright law is honored. As a software developer it is strange to me that people have strong feelings about software being Free (as in Freedom). It's as if they think they're helping people who need it. In practice, it's the big companies that end up using the Free / free software to implement services from which they profit considerably. So developers are really just foolishly giving their work away to big companies to profit from. At least some developers are. Most open source software isn't worth it's weight in bytes.

 

[user 37518]

Transferring ownership of physical book is not copying. If you photocopy a book that is infringement. This is why a copy center will refuse to make copies from books and magazines.

If a copyright holder dies, their heirs inherit it like any other property (although the specifics depend on other factors like whether or not the copyright holder is an individual or company).

Your personal opinion will not change the judges interpretation of the law.

Profits derived from infringement are considered when calculating damages but it has no impact on being found responsible for infringing. In the worst case, the copyright holder could seek statutory damages which can be thousands of dollars per instance.

In practice, for a file sharing scenario like this, it is more likely that the publisher would ask for a relatively small settlement to forgive and forget. It is quite common for the parents of some kid sharing music files to get a letter with an offer to pay some amount like several thousand dollars or so. They provide a website link to submit payment by CC or bank transfer.

In the case of a site of books like this, I don't know what the settlement demand would be. But if it had say 20 books from one publisher, that might draw the attention of that publisher to demand a settlement that would presumably more than cover legal expenses which could easily be 10's of thousands of dollars I would think. And they would have to pay it. Otherwise they will sue and the legal costs to the accused would be many MANY times that amount. It's simple math. A big publisher can afford to sue and they have to profits to deduct legal expenses from their taxes.

Again, my opinion about all of this is that the world economy depends more on copyright than people realize and therefore it is in everyone's interest that copyright law is honored. As a software developer it is strange to me that people have strong feelings about software being Free (as in Freedom). It's as if they think they're helping people who need it. In practice, it's the big companies that end up using the Free / free software to implement services from which they profit considerably. So developers are really just foolishly giving their work away to big companies to profit from. At least some developers are. Most open source software isn't worth it's weight in bytes.

Regarding the legal slap on the hand you just gave me I would just say, that if you can find the 1940's german author of many books on that site, or his inheritors, you should, instead of giving me a lecture, go ahead and let them know that their great grandfather's material is being published on the web. In any case, the admin is in the Netherlands, so the US judge's interpretation of the law (I am assuming you are trying to instruct me on US law), as you say, is irrelevant. And if you think some International court will take this case for some books on vacuum tubes from the 50s and 60s, no longer in print, from publishers that most likely no longer exist, I think you are delusional. I would be glad to pay the family of the author for a copy of an out of print book. But I guess that option is out of the question in most cases, so we should just let all this information die out never to be seen again, right?

Regarding the newer books, I did express my concern previously.

 

[Bo Deadly]

In any case, the admin is in the Netherlands, so the US judge's interpretation of the law (I am assuming you are trying to instruct me on US law), as you say, is irrelevant.

Copyright is enforced through international treaties. So a plaintiff would just have to establish jurisdiction which could be anywhere the infringer infringed or did business and not necessarily where they reside. Places that have a poor enforcement of intellectual property law like Russia or India would be difficult or impossible. But in this particular case, it would be relatively straight forward to submit a complaint in an EU court.

And if you think some International court will take this case for some books on vacuum tubes from the 50s and 60s, no longer in print, from publishers that most likely no longer exist, I think you are delusional.

You are communicating opinions and deflecting with red-herring use cases that I think could mislead people. I'm just trying to provide facts.

But this is deviating from the normal technical discussion of the Drawing Board and I don't do the Brewery so ...

 

[user 37518]

Copyright is enforced through international treaties. So a plaintiff would just have to establish jurisdiction which could be anywhere the infringer infringed or did business and not necessarily where they reside. Places that have a poor enforcement of intellectual property law like Russia or India would be difficult or impossible. But in this particular case, it would be relatively straight forward to submit a complaint in an EU court.


You are communicating opinions and deflecting with red-herring use cases that I think could mislead people. I'm just trying to provide facts.

But this is deviating from the normal technical discussion of the Drawing Board and I don't do the Brewery so ...

What exactly are we discussing here? Or what is the purpose? I was the first one to point out that I thought many books in that site might enter the realm of piracy. The very old books I think are ok, you don't like it, go ahead and make a claim to an EU court. I don't exactly know what you are trying to accomplish by quoting me international copyright law. And I honestly don't care. I always buy books, I can post pics of my library as a proof, and those that I don't buy I download for free since I teach at a big University, and the University has treaties/deals with most publishers, which allow the faculty and students to download books via the University platform. But, do I think it is ok to download a book from the 40s, 50s or 60s that is no longer being published or available anywhere? Yes. Do I think that downloading books that do not fit the before mentioned category are ok to download and distribute? No. Simple as that.

 

[ccaudle]

What exactly are we discussing here?

Just educating people regarding the previously mentioned web site. You are right that as a practical matter no one will care if you download some obscure electronics text which is out of print, regardless of legal technicalities. What was ambiguous (possibly due to translation issues) was the response regarding newer works, which seemed to imply that just because a copy could be found online that it was acceptable for the Dutch website to republish. That is categorically not correct the way I have phrased it, but it is not clear if I have understood the response from the website administrator correctly or not.

 

[user 37518]

Just educating people regarding the previously mentioned web site. You are right that as a practical matter no one will care if you download some obscure electronics text which is out of print, regardless of legal technicalities. What was ambiguous (possibly due to translation issues) was the response regarding newer works, which seemed to imply that just because a copy could be found online that it was acceptable for the Dutch website to republish. That is categorically not correct the way I have phrased it, but it is not clear if I have understood the response from the website administrator correctly or not.

Yes, I do agree that just because the books are already circulating on the Internet, that doesn't automatically make it legal to download.

 

[Rattakat]

Thanks all. It was not my intention to start a discussion like this, but maybe it is good. I agree with the point these books can't be lost.
I am 49 years old and i want to learn electronics. From scratch. I learned how a transformer works and how filter caps do their job.

 

[Yash]

I am 49 years old and i want to learn electronics. From scratch. I learned how a transformer works and how filter caps do their job.

You're embarking on a very cool adventure. There are levels to this. I found that getting started requires some good tools and some good references.

Tools: DVM, Oscilloscope, Power Supply and batteries, Soldering Iron, Desoldering skills or gear, Solder, Flux, cleaning tool for iron tips, a large desk, good light, pen and paper, laptop, plenty of salvaged components, wires/cables and circuits, breadboard, copper clad or proto/vero-boards etc...

You do not need to spend a lot for these tools when starting. Re-evaluate later.

Take proper precautions with AC mains connections, Large filter caps, don't breathe the flux fumes.

Although I did some formal Electronics when I was young, I find that nowadays I don't want to get bogged down in the Maths calculations as back then, so a good Sim or Calculator (online or offline) do the trick for me. We were taught op amps , transistors, etc... in one class and things like Logic-level Electronics in another, but I am not an EE - I chose Computer Science as Engineering Degree instead.

I got an old hardcover of Sedra and Smith's 'Microelectronic Circuits' and it's quite a good reference if you want a quick look at various schematics, for instance: amplifiers using BJTs, FETs, MOSFETs, Op Amps. Here again, there are a lot of equations and derivations, but I don't look at these anymore. Others will recommend 'The Art of Electronics' but there are more focused books. Often, web resources are more in-depth or up-to-date.

I also find it very interesting to put myself in a 'classroom lab' mood, and do little experiments that I can sim, implement and measure with the DVM or scope or other tools.

If I am doing audio playback, I also listen.. then measure, and try to make correlations between measurements and what I hear. I find that too many people just focus on measurements only, then they devolve into focusing on one number as a single figure of merit - the THD or SINAD Cult. This doesn't characterise an audio circuit like an amplifier fully.

It is a lot of fun to be able to have an 'Electronics Lab' at home. This, with the Web, forums (and ChatGPT) makes for a very nice environment for continuous learning.

You mentioned Transformers and Caps. Just these two subjects can make for a lifetime of experiments and learning.

 

[user 37518]

You're embarking on a very cool adventure. There are levels to this. I found that getting started requires some good tools and some good references.

Tools: DVM, Oscilloscope, Power Supply and batteries, Soldering Iron, Desoldering skills or gear, Solder, Flux, cleaning tool for iron tips, a large desk, good light, pen and paper, laptop, plenty of salvaged components, wires/cables and circuits, breadboard, copper clad or proto/vero-boards etc...

You do not need to spend a lot for these tools when starting. Re-evaluate later.

Take proper precautions with AC mains connections, Large filter caps, don't breathe the flux fumes.

Although I did some formal Electronics when I was young, I find that nowadays I don't want to get bogged down in the Maths calculations as back then, so a good Sim or Calculator (online or offline) do the trick for me. We were taught op amps , transistors, etc... in one class and things like Logic-level Electronics in another, but I am not an EE - I chose Computer Science as Engineering Degree instead.

I got an old hardcover of Sedra and Smith's 'Microelectronic Circuits' and it's quite a good reference if you want a quick look at various schematics, for instance: amplifiers using BJTs, FETs, MOSFETs, Op Amps. Here again, there are a lot of equations and derivations, but I don't look at these anymore. Others will recommend 'The Art of Electronics' but there are more focused books. Often, web resources are more in-depth or up-to-date.

I also find it very interesting to put myself in a 'classroom lab' mood, and do little experiments that I can sim, implement and measure with the DVM or scope or other tools.

If I am doing audio playback, I also listen.. then measure, and try to make correlations between measurements and what I hear. I find that too many people just focus on measurements only, then they devolve into focusing on one number as a single figure of merit - the THD or SINAD Cult. This doesn't characterise an audio circuit like an amplifier fully.

It is a lot of fun to be able to have an 'Electronics Lab' at home. This, with the Web, forums (and ChatGPT) makes for a very nice environment for continuous learning.

You mentioned Transformers and Caps. Just these two subjects can make for a lifetime of experiments and learning.

Good advice! I think it depends on the user. Some people like the math, some hate it. I, personally, do not think I've understood anything unless I know the math behind it, or at least have an idea of the math/phenomena that makes it tick. I am a bit surprised, though, that you are an engineer with a computer science degree and do not look at the math.
Some people do circuit wonders with basic algebra or even only arithmetic, while some like to calculate every single tiny thing. I think that a balance of both aspects should be followed, that is, designing by only looking at numbers is not so great, but equally unfortunate is the "circuit template' approach, in which people just use a circuit because it has worked for them many times over the years, but they don't really know how it works. The former approach can sometimes be divorced from reality, while the latter may not always work optimally when used in different conditions, other than the ones that it was originally intended for.
Also, some people learn differently. Some think that all they need is a few hours in the lab messing around with the real circuit to understand it, others, prefer the theoretical aspect and perhaps using some simulator to validate their results. I tend to be more inclined to the latter approach. I have to recognize that I am more of an 'armchair' engineer in the sense that I know a lot about circuits that I haven't actually built or tinkered with, but I also enjoy some lab work from time to time; that is probably why I went into academia rather than to industry.

 

[Yash]

I am a bit surprised, though, that you are an engineer with a computer science degree and do not look at the math.

I don't need to anymore: the Sims and Calculators do that for me.

I do like Maths; I just don't like the approach of having to do re-derivations of something that has been done before - I prefer a more pragmatic and practical approach. So I'll happily pass over the re-derivations of Sedra-Smith and hone in on the various parameters that can be optimised in some way.

I want what the final equations mean, and what the results of the final equations say. It's not like I am avoiding all Maths but these software do make things a lot easier - the calcs, the measurements, the graphing, etc...

As for sims and final implementations, so far for me, the sim is an 'indicator' as it is imperfect and the one I use doesn't take into account all parameters of a physical implementation.