Responsibility of Helping

[scott2000]

I'm very comfortable on ladders and rarely have ever thought of any dangers associated with being on them. I remember one time I had a 19 year old kid working with me. I was doing a pretty tall 2 story home (maybe 35 feet) and thought I would be kind of a role model and make him climb the ladders and do some work up high. I could tell he was terrified even though he soldiered through and did his thing as best he could. I felt like I was helping him out by showing him how to conquer his fears and it felt pretty good. I took him home after work and met his father who was out in the garage messing around.

The father was nice, not too much older than myself, and he offered me a beer and we started talking about his  experience and just stuff related to work and how his son did. Of course I told him how scared his boy was up 30 feet in the air on a ladder and how he did good......
and I was waiting for the thanks for teaching my son deal when His tone then changed a bit and I'll never forget it. I can't remember word for word how he said it but he wanted me to know that this kid was his baby. He said he knows about the dangers that exist by being on ladders and how  he was concerned about what I was having his son do. He was really nice about everything so I didn't feel like it was a threat but, me having a younger son at the time, I could feel his concern and it really caught me off guard. I asked the kid the next day if he was ok with being on the ladder and he really didn't want to be and I never made him. I found other things he could do until he moved on to his preferred direction in life....

I've always been brought up to conquer your fears and, if I see somebody doing something, then I knew this was not off limits to me. That and the razzing by the guys around me always helped . So I've found myself in some hairy situations although the scariest ones were always with safety harnesses and people around. This scenario with the kid really opened my eyes to the actual responsibility that I have sometimes when interacting with people on levels that I am alone familiar with.

My neighbor just recently asked me to help with her GFCI outlet not working. I guess she plugged in some long extension cord for Christmas lights and blew it. Literally broke the outlet. On my behalf, I did try to wiggle out of doing it by telling her I didn't really know too much about that stuff and I wasn't licensed,etc.......She didn't care and I didn't (key word)  say no.. So, in my process, I pulled the outlet out of the wall to test if it was getting the 120 to it. It was, but it wasn't getting past it. So, I'm talking to my electrician buddy on the phone just to make sure of a couple of things and, I had him on speaker. He said sometimes the reset buttons can be goofy and taking a screwdriver or something to get some leverage on pushing it can help. We started talking about other stuff when I looked over and saw my neighbor grabbing both sides of the exposed outlet with her one hand while going to jab the switch with a screwdriver she just grabbed. I yelled stop and told her it was live voltage on the outlet and she was grabbing right at it...UGH.....

I replaced the outlet and all was and hopefully will always be well.

So I learned that trying to help in this scenario came with the responsibility to make sure I monitored her actions while I was still in the process of troubleshooting and leaving dangers exposed...

I'm sure this is all common sense I should have already had in regards to my responsibility  but, I was more content putting the lack of common sense on her. Good thing the blame game stopped in my head.  I know everybody makes mistakes but I can't help but wonder, if it were a professional electrician there helping her, he wouldn't have made that scenario available even if it were for the fact that he wouldn't have been troubleshooting with her on a friendly basis like I was.  In any case, it wouldn't be my responsibility if something did happen. 

Another neighbor was putting in some laminate floors and he didn't know you could cut the door jamb to slide the laminate under for a neater look. I told him he could borrow my Makita grinder which I have a 4" wood cutting blade for. After thinking for a few seconds when I brought it to him, I ended up doing it myself..... There was no guard on it and it's like 15000rpm....

No good deed goes unpunished is a bit harsh but, there are obstacles to overcome to prevent that from becoming reality sometimes it would seem.

I saw a question here recently.....I knew the answer this time (which is extremely rare for me here)....
I played bystander.... I felt like if he was asking this particular question, he shouldn't be doing it....further  he shouldn't be bringing that question and it's responsibilities here.  Some things should be known . Within reason.

I've looked and seen a few more inquiries (almost test like) that trouble me..... Maybe because I don't know the answers or maybe because of the dangers that could happen if I answered wrong..... or even if correctly but without the if ands or buts included.... oh and don't grab the chassis....


Are we being responsible while encouraging? I thought I was with the ladder climbing scenario.

I see guys take it pretty well when asking about cloning and they get the wrath of the members who disagree about it being a good idea. It's all from an obviously good place so, it seems like a good thing to me.

Any thoughts on when to step back, when to help, how to help, how much to help and/or where to draw the lines of responsibility when choosing to offer help?

 

[Phrazemaster]

Very good stories Scott. I know where you're coming from; some of what you shared could have ended badly for you or the other person. Would not have been your fault. The simple fact is, this life is dangerous. You can die crossing the street, or sitting at home sipping tea. For sheer stupidity it's the "Darwin Awards."

I would hate to see people stop sharing what they know because of fear of retaliation/retribution from someone who might misconstrue what is said, misunderstand it, misapply it, or plain be mis-qualified to even attempt it. Wiring toroids and other transformers come to mind.

When I did my first DIY Green Pre, I was absolutely terrified to wire the toroid. I spent sooooo much time googling it, and trolling these forums, until I was absolutely sure I understood it. Even now I give this area of DIY great care and attention. But I did it successfully, and now when it comes up although I'm careful, I totally understand what I'm doing!

So, if someone is willing to learn - and that's the key, willing to learn - then they can take it upon themselves to try something, and assume all risk. Your 19 year old boy clearly didn't want to be on that ladders, so I think you made the right decision to relieve him of those duties.

We aren't liable for people's mistakes here, and I'm certain that if wrong information is given, no one should be liable for it. After all, this is an "opinion forum" and all "information" should be taken as "data."

I make the distinction between "information" and "data" like this: To "inform" someone is to impart a truth. That's the heart of "information;" it's truth. But "data" is just a collection of ideas that may or may not in fact contain or impart truth. I actually consider that we are in the "data" age, and not the "Information Age" as I've heard it said. There's a lot of BS out there.

So I take all responses here as "data" and it's my response-ability (my ability to respond) to take what is said and make sense of it, or throw it away. If something happened to me as a result of misunderstanding something, or making a mistake, due to ideas expressed here, it would totally be my fault. That's how I see it anyway, and it's the only way we are going to keep forums like this open and free for people to share.

I haven't read the original welcome post but I hope somewhere it states something about "the opinions expressed here should not be taken as truth, or as advice or help in any way shape or form."

 

[L´Andratté]

+1 Phrazemaster

There´s a german saying translated vaguely as "meant well is not the same as done well".

I have spend thoughts on that theme too and I think help (on a philosophical scale, if you excuse me saying so) brings responsibilty with it and should be it´s own reward. If you take any action, however good, there´s always a chance it will backfire badly,  and that one should be aware of. Still it´s better than doing nothing (imho, if you think your personal advantage is the most important thing, it´s probably different).

In your first example maybe it´s different with the boy on the ladder, because he might have been in a situation, where he felt it not possible to say no? And yes, people are so excrutiatingly different (while being all the same in a dog-monkey-crow-all-the-same way )

 

[madswitcher]

Hi Scott,
I know what you mean in 'I know the answer but shall I voice it' scenario.  Sometimes I feel that our society is eager to blame if you offer help and it turns out to not be the right answer - just look at the feeling behind some of the opinions on audio sometimes voiced here.

The dad/son/ladder incident is interesting in that perhaps it the Dad's fear of heights that he is refecting on to the son.  I sometimes get a similar situation when, believe it or no,t I walking our two Bichon Frise dogs out for a walk.  They are on a lead and fundamentally soft lap dogs.  When some youngsters approach them to give them a stroke - tails are wagging etc,  I am thinking that it is useful for kids to be confident around animals as animals seem to sense it, but over-protective Mum/Dad jumps in and tell the kid  to come away and that all dogs are dangerous.  Obviously a passing on of thir own inate fear.

Regards

Mike

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm very comfortable on ladders and rarely have ever thought of any dangers associated with being on them. I remember one time I had a 19 year old kid working with me. I was doing a pretty tall 2 story home (maybe 35 feet) and thought I would be kind of a role model and make him climb the ladders and do some work up high. I could tell he was terrified even though he soldiered through and did his thing as best he could. I felt like I was helping him out by showing him how to conquer his fears and it felt pretty good. I took him home after work and met his father who was out in the garage messing around.

The father was nice, not too much older than myself, and he offered me a beer and we started talking about his  experience and just stuff related to work and how his son did. Of course I told him how scared his boy was up 30 feet in the air on a ladder and how he did good......
and I was waiting for the thanks for teaching my son deal when His tone then changed a bit and I'll never forget it. I can't remember word for word how he said it but he wanted me to know that this kid was his baby. He said he knows about the dangers that exist by being on ladders and how  he was concerned about what I was having his son do. He was really nice about everything so I didn't feel like it was a threat but, me having a younger son at the time, I could feel his concern and it really caught me off guard. I asked the kid the next day if he was ok with being on the ladder and he really didn't want to be and I never made him. I found other things he could do until he moved on to his preferred direction in life....

I am probably older than you and still hate ladders... I will do it as a last recourse if I can't get somebody else to do it. On the army "confidence" (cough) course we had to climb up over a rope net some significant height (tens of feet), but that was not as scary (to me) as being on a cheap shaky ladder, swaying in the breeze. 

I've always been brought up to conquer your fears and, if I see somebody doing something, then I knew this was not off limits to me. That and the razzing by the guys around me always helped . So I've found myself in some hairy situations although the scariest ones were always with safety harnesses and people around. This scenario with the kid really opened my eyes to the actual responsibility that I have sometimes when interacting with people on levels that I am alone familiar with.

irrational fears should be managed, rational fears should be respected.

What would happen if the kid fell off the ladder?

My neighbor just recently asked me to help with her GFCI outlet not working. I guess she plugged in some long extension cord for Christmas lights and blew it. Literally broke the outlet. On my behalf, I did try to wiggle out of doing it by telling her I didn't really know too much about that stuff and I wasn't licensed,etc.......She didn't care and I didn't (key word)  say no.. So, in my process, I pulled the outlet out of the wall to test if it was getting the 120 to it. It was, but it wasn't getting past it. So, I'm talking to my electrician buddy on the phone just to make sure of a couple of things and, I had him on speaker. He said sometimes the reset buttons can be goofy and taking a screwdriver or something to get some leverage on pushing it can help. We started talking about other stuff when I looked over and saw my neighbor grabbing both sides of the exposed outlet with her one hand while going to jab the switch with a screwdriver she just grabbed. I yelled stop and told her it was live voltage on the outlet and she was grabbing right at it...UGH.....

It appears you were setting a bad example. Working on a hot outlet is not something to teach a civilian is acceptable (even though I suspect some of us do it. )  You should have shown your neighbor how to turn off the power before messing with it.

I replaced the outlet and all was and hopefully will always be well.

As long as she doesn't try to fix the next one herself with power on.

So I learned that trying to help in this scenario came with the responsibility to make sure I monitored her actions while I was still in the process of troubleshooting and leaving dangers exposed...

at least, but wouldn't be a problem with the branch breaker/fuse turned off.

I'm sure this is all common sense I should have already had in regards to my responsibility  but, I was more content putting the lack of common sense on her. Good thing the blame game stopped in my head.  I know everybody makes mistakes but I can't help but wonder, if it were a professional electrician there helping her, he wouldn't have made that scenario available even if it were for the fact that he wouldn't have been troubleshooting with her on a friendly basis like I was.  In any case, it wouldn't be my responsibility if something did happen. 

hopefully a real electrician would cut the power first.

Another neighbor was putting in some laminate floors and he didn't know you could cut the door jamb to slide the laminate under for a neater look. I told him he could borrow my Makita grinder which I have a 4" wood cutting blade for. After thinking for a few seconds when I brought it to him, I ended up doing it myself..... There was no guard on it and it's like 15000rpm....

yup...

No good deed goes unpunished is a bit harsh but, there are obstacles to overcome to prevent that from becoming reality sometimes it would seem.

I saw a question here recently.....I knew the answer this time (which is extremely rare for me here)....
I played bystander.... I felt like if he was asking this particular question, he shouldn't be doing it....further  he shouldn't be bringing that question and it's responsibilities here.  Some things should be known . Within reason.

I've looked and seen a few more inquiries (almost test like) that trouble me..... Maybe because I don't know the answers or maybe because of the dangers that could happen if I answered wrong..... or even if correctly but without the if ands or buts included.... oh and don't grab the chassis....

I can't recall how many times I've repeated basic cautions, and old school safety rules (like keep one hand in your pocket when working on high voltage. ).

The bad news is many electrocutions are professionals (engineers and technicians) who should know better but became too comfortable with electricity.

Are we being responsible while encouraging? I thought I was with the ladder climbing scenario.

I see guys take it pretty well when asking about cloning and they get the wrath of the members who disagree about it being a good idea. It's all from an obviously good place so, it seems like a good thing to me.

Any thoughts on when to step back, when to help, how to help, how much to help and/or where to draw the lines of responsibility when choosing to offer help?

When in doubt do what is right...

We can never offer too many cautions about human safety. Be careful out there.  I worked for a large manufacturer and people can be killed by safe products plugged into unsafe miswired outlets  (like a reverse polarity bootleg ground, that energizes chassis with mains voltage.)

Another common practice we need to warn about is SAFETY ground lifts. It is called SAFETY ground for a reason... if it causes hum, fix the hum, don't defeat the SAFETY ground.


JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

NCVT non-contact voltage testers are cheap and handy for confirming that power is present or not...

I am one of the cheapest people I know, and I'm hiring an electrician to wire in a new power drop (and junction box) before I replace my 50+ YO wall oven... The oven is so old I can't buy replacement parts... (temp sensor is faulty).

The very old fabric covered wiring is maybe two circuit (not one proper ground in my entire house before I added some). Code requires a 4 wire drop for ovens and that is beyond my DIY comfort zone...  after we do that it will be the only wiring inside my house that is to code...  :

For example look at this redneck wiring I found under my stove top...  What could possibly go wrong with wedging electrical conductors behind a nail. 

JR

 

[Gold]

I don’t consider myself particularly afraid of heights but I wouldn’t want to be on a ladder all day either.  I didn’t like being up 50ft in a Genie lift at all when I was working in a night club.

One thing that really gets my goat is when someone asking for advice is told  what they are asking about is easy.  I don’t know anyone who appreciates being told something they are struggling with is easy. It’s not helpful.

 

[fazer]

4 wire 220v is not particularly difficult to run. But before I got my first EE job after college, I helped my brothers build a large commercial greenhouse.  The hired electrician was retiring and handed me his tools and said call me if you need help.  With his help I learned about what I studied in school first hand.  So hooking up 220 three phase on fans pumps and boilers was education in electrical.  Also bending conduit , pulling wire, and reading electric code and meeting inspectors was great experience. 

The main thing is 220 in my county is mandatory licensed electrician or if your house burns down, your insurance can refuse to pay.  So you have to get a sign off to stay legal.

 

[JohnRoberts]

4 wire 220v is not particularly difficult to run. But before I got my first EE job after college, I helped my brothers build a large commercial greenhouse.  The hired electrician was retiring and handed me his tools and said call me if you need help.  With his help I learned about what I studied in school first hand.  So hooking up 220 three phase on fans pumps and boilers was education in electrical.  Also bending conduit , pulling wire, and reading electric code and meeting inspectors was great experience. 

The main thing is 220 in my county is mandatory licensed electrician or if your house burns down, your insurance can refuse to pay.  So you have to get a sign off to stay legal.

Unless you are volunteering to do it, don't tell me how easy it is. 

I am quite comfortable with electricity, but know there is stuff I do not know about wiring into hot service panels, etc.  Plus at my age I am not happy climbing around in my attic to trace out the old wiring. As I mentioned there are two 240V wires in the junction box under the stove top when logically there should only be one?

I am one of the cheapest people I know, but willing to pay a real professional to do this one job.  The rest of my house wiring does not look very professional, but the electrician I spoke with seems better than that.  The really cheap path would be to wire the new oven to the old (2 wire?) power drop, which would work,  but after all my preaching about safety grounds, this just does not feel right.

When in doubt do what's right.  8)

JR 

 

[PRR]

3-phase 240V may be easier than prototyping, say, a drum tuner. Typically lots less wires, and they won't break.

Figuring out "WTF??" in power wiring is not much different than repairing pre-"repaired" audio. With historical hindsight, sometimes the old power ways made sense for their day; often not true in audio hacking.

I just terminated some #8 for a 30A generator feed, and some #16 for an hour-meter. There's some satisfaction in honking down on bug screws and knowing they will hold big power. The little 0.010A crimps are just fiddly.

Yes, wiring in an attic sucks compared to a bench.

Yes, POWER wiring you bear the responsibility of not burning the house down and leaving your dogs homeless.

 

[JohnRoberts]

3-phase 240V may be easier than prototyping, say, a drum tuner. Typically lots less wires, and they won't break.

It's single phase... and I think you can disconnect from the street power by pulling the meter but again outside my comfort range.  Maybe after i see someone do it, I will be more comfortable, but then I won't need to do it.

Figuring out "WTF??" in power wiring is not much different than repairing pre-"repaired" audio. With historical hindsight, sometimes the old power ways made sense for their day; often not true in audio hacking.

not rocket science, but I am not embarrassed to hire a professional to do this.

I just terminated some #8 for a 30A generator feed, and some #16 for an hour-meter. There's some satisfaction in honking down on bug screws and knowing they will hold big power. The little 0.010A crimps are just fiddly.

when can you get here?

Yes, wiring in an attic sucks compared to a bench.

yes

Yes, POWER wiring you bear the responsibility of not burning the house down and leaving your dogs homeless.

When in doubt do what is right.....  In this case I believe I need to hire a professional.  One neighbor had a fire in his house due to dodgy wiring, and I have already fixed some questionable stuff in mine.

BTW I keep a fresh battery in my smoke alarm.

JR

 

[PRR]

fazer's "4 wire 220v" is probably 3-phase. Wire is wire, just more of them; and if you have 3-ph motors, the sequence matters.

For lurkers: Don't pull your meter! The electric company calls that tampering; the meter is their money-maker. Also it is possible to get VERY serious arc-burns when a meter-yank goes bad. When I wanted a new service, I hired commercial electricians to wire from the meter box, and even they would not pull the meter, we waited (and waited) for Hydro to come out and pull it. The proper way involves heavy protective clothing and face protection, and a second guy to take the first guy to the hospital. (Much known-dead house work gets done with less gear.)

> when can you get here?

Tempting. Far below freezing here. But 8-12" snow coming down, so I may not get out of the house for a while. (My neighbor flew-out for Florida last night.)

 

[JohnRoberts]

fazer's "4 wire 220v" is probably 3-phase. Wire is wire, just more of them; and if you have 3-ph motors, the sequence matters.

The 4-wire I am talking about is H-N-H-G  So two opposite polarity legs of the single phase (120+120=240), a neutral, and a dedicated safety ground.  Which will make my new wall oven the first appliance in my house legally grounded....  8)  I have DIY grounded several so far (water heater, washing machine, dishwasher). Not exactly to code, but I don't predict getting electrical shocks from my shower water ever again.  :

My old oven wire drop is more like H-H, so not even a neutral to cheat ground to.  Old school wiring practice was to bootleg a safety ground to neutral if neutral was present, but that isn't nearly as safe as a true dedicated safety ground,  thus the modern 4 wire interfaces.

For lurkers: Don't pull your meter! The electric company calls that tampering; the meter is their money-maker. Also it is possible to get VERY serious arc-burns when a meter-yank goes bad. When I wanted a new service, I hired commercial electricians to wire from the meter box, and even they would not pull the meter, we waited (and waited) for Hydro to come out and pull it. The proper way involves heavy protective clothing and face protection, and a second guy to take the first guy to the hospital. (Much known-dead house work gets done with less gear.)

+1    I wasn't planning to because I know that I don't know what I don't know....  I grok the theory just fine but am light on practical experience dealing with that end of the wire.  I have already talked to an electrician about doing the work in the next few weeks.  If its as easy as you all say it shouldn't cost me very much.  ;D

> when can you get here?

Tempting. Far below freezing here. But 8-12" snow coming down, so I may not get out of the house for a while. (My neighbor flew-out for Florida last night.)

Yup I grew up, south of you (NJ), but shovelled my share of driveways. I really got snow and cold totally out of my system walking guard duty around empty buildings in the middle of winter at Ft Riley KS... Since then I prefer to only visit snow, especially with snow bunnies in the vicinity.

You are still welcome any time, but don't expect to sunbathe in the yard this week, you would need to go further south...  maybe you can hitch a ride with one of the many canadians driving past on their way to florida this time of the year... :

JR

 

[PRR]

> If its as easy as you all say it shouldn't cost me very much.  ;D

Easy /= low cost

My work was 2 guys 45 minutes working easy. My bill was 6 man/hours. Of course they came plenty early. Then we waited far over an hour for the electric company to arrive. (They'd had an incident that morning and were on Safety Stand-Down.) And of course my guys and the company guys knew each other and had to gossip while getting shut-down and re-started. Time rounds to the hour.

I paid the bill willingly. I knew why it took so long (and I'd expected longer), the misc charges for the odd bushing were less than I'd pay retail, and the job was done very right.

Seemed to me this high-class company could get its workers certified to pull meters safely and report/reseal. Then I realized their bosses know that working with Hydro is sure to add at least a billable hour (over 4 man-hours this time). Why give up free money?

That was just a new fusebox. I still have to get over there and run some inside wires (basically the whole house).

I sun-bathed while I blew snow today. VERY bright between post-nor'easter clearing and the reflection from the snow. OK, between sunglasses and hood and gloves, only the tip of my nose really got its vitamin D. Expecting 10F wednesday and -4F the next few nights. Put a hour-meter on my furnace (those #16 crimps) and it ran 27 hours in the last 51 hours; will approach 80% run-time the rest of the week. So this is (I hope!) as cold as it ever gets here (I had historical data when I sized this furnace).

 

[JohnRoberts]

I sun-bathed while I blew snow today. VERY bright between post-nor'easter clearing and the reflection from the snow. OK, between sunglasses and hood and gloves, only the tip of my nose really got its vitamin D. Expecting 10F wednesday and -4F the next few nights. Put a hour-meter on my furnace (those #16 crimps) and it ran 27 hours in the last 51 hours; will approach 80% run-time the rest of the week. So this is (I hope!) as cold as it ever gets here (I had historical data when I sized this furnace).

Stay warm.... we had one outlier weather forecast  predicting  6' for new years morning, but that has been upgraded to a more balmy 13'....  I know better than to complain about cold weather to this group.

JR

 

[Scodiddly]

not rocket science, but I am not embarrassed to hire a professional to do this.

I'm stuck hanging around my house today because the plumbers are here, replacing the old 58-year-old galvanized plumbing. It's something I could do myself... if I was familiar with building code, if I had a van full of parts parked outside.