ribbon mic: ribbon Length/Width/Thickness RATIO?

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ToobieSnack

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2005
Messages
493
hi everyone,

xvlk.. you had once stated that there are important ratio's for Length / Width

IIRC you said 1:8-10

Is this a ratio of Lenght/Width?
should i be concerned with a.... Length/Width/thickness ...ratio?

AS one example: using a ratio of 1:11

my ribbon is 2" for ease of computing .... i convert 2" into 32/16

if i divide 32/16 divided by 11/16 this is 2.9/16 ...... which determines that I will have a about a 3/16" ribbon width .... ]
this IS the ratio I am currently using with both my ribbon mics....

how does thickness affect ribbon ratio's/frequency/power?

thanks
ts
 
[quote author="ToobieSnack"]
xvlk.. you had once stated that there are important ratio's for Length / Width
IIRC you said 1:8-10
[/quote]
yes,
[quote author="ToobieSnack"]
AS one example: using a ratio of 1:11
[/quote]
Still O.K. , but st Peterburg (formerly Leningrad,
yes, nice school here, Kinovuz)
have ribbons 1:20 But difficult to reribbon.
I not know reason, maybe bad transformer laminations,
I dont know.
[quote author="ToobieSnack"]
how does thickness affect ribbon ratio's/frequency/power?
[/quote]

Thickness is tradeoff between ribbon resistance (maybe lowest for
good noise factor), and ribbon viscous damping (ribbon may be
damped by the surrounding air self for good noise factor)

If you use 1-2 micrometers of Al, you are O.K. For 10 micrometers
you can use damping screen, thicker ribbon is nonsense ???
PRR, what about thickness of Olson s horn omni ????

xvlk
 
[quote author="xvlk"]
thicker ribbon is nonsense ??? [/quote]

Not really. The usual rutine using a thicker ribbon is to corrugate it differently, so the middle part is flat, with a curve in verticale plane. Now the whole system works as a piston which reduces resonance modes. When the ribbon thickness goes much above 2um, the sensitivity gets worse.
 
i think xvlk means thicker than 10um... that WOULD be nonsense right?

ALSO:
so the middle part is flat, with a curve in verticale plane.

i remember now you describing this before....
do you mean: that the top and bottom have a curvature? or corrugations? and the center of the ribbon (lets say 1" with 1/2" above the flat surface and 1/2" below the flat surface has corrugations?/curvature)?

OR is this like a racing stripe that runs down the center of the ribbon vertically but nothing at all in the exact center?

OR is this ribbon more like the slats of a vertical blind for windows of a home? one long curved ribbon...not corrugated at all?

thanks marik ...sorry for my brain denseness...lol... :grin:

later
ts
 
> how does thickness affect ribbon ratio's/frequency/power?

Build two ribbons. One is twice the thickness of the other.

The thicker ribbon has twice(*) the mass, so it will move half as fast, make half the output voltage.

However it also has half the resistance, so we can use a 1.414 times higher step-up transformer.

If you change both the thickness and the step-up, double thickness means 3dB less output.

Therefore thinner ribbons are better.

(*) Ah, but there is a layer of air that clings to the ribbon. And it has mass that won't change with ribbon thickness. An infinitely thin (but air-tight) massless ribbon would still have mass when used in air (using mikes in a vacuum is generally not done, though it can help quantify the air-effects by measuring the difference).

So the total mass is air-mass plus ribbon-mass. If the ribbon mass is higher than air-mass, motion is low, and output falls faster than the reduced resistance helps. But if the ribbon mass is lower than the air-mass, motion and voltage is limited by air-mass, and resistance rises which reduces output power.

So as a first-crack, try to split the difference. Consider setting ribbon mass equal to air-mass.

As a VERY rough approximation: the air-mass on a circular diaphragm is about like a hemisphere of air (on each side) the same diameter as the diaphragm. For a long rectangle like a ribbon, I suspect it is roughly a semi-cylinder (both sides) with diameter about like the narrow side of the rectangle.

Assume the ribbon is infinitely long, so we can treat it as an extended cross-section and just figure the 2-dimensional problem. If the ribbon width is 1 unit, the area of a circle the same diameter is 3.14*(0.5^2) which is 0.78. So we can approximate the air-mass as a rectangle of air 1 unit wide and 0.78 unit deep (0.39 on each side, but they have to move together).

Aluminum is 165 pounds per cubic foot. Air is 0.08 pounds per cubic foot. The density of Al is 2,000 times greater than air.

Therefore to mass-match, the ribbon thickness/width ratio should be 2,000/0.78= 2,600. For a 0.25" ribbon, 0.000,1" foil.

This is very slender stuff, hard to work with, easy to blow-out. However I believe this is the general range of the old 1/4" ribbon mikes; or rather, they picked 1/4" because they could get 0.1 or 0.2 mil foil.

But that is hardly the end of your worries. Take a sheet of roofing-tin or hobby aluminum, 24" wide and 0.01" thick. Shake it. Sounds like thunder. Scale it down to 0.25", it will sound like small high-pitch thunder. Corrugated roofing-tin thunders less, though it has higher mass/area than flat tin, and still "tinks" on the flats between bends. The floor-pan of your car is also roughly 24" by 0.01" tin, but bumped-up in both directions, and thunders even less. (Gripe: Honda knows this, but made my Accord's exhaust-shield out of near-flat tin, and it clangs on bumps. I assume I have to pay more for the Accura to get a well-dented non-clang heat-shield...) The "tink" in a floor-pan can be killed with added soft mass: not a big deal in a car, but deadens a ribbon which has to move to earn its cost.
 
[quote author="ToobieSnack"]i think xvlk means thicker than 10um... that WOULD be nonsense right?

ALSO:
so the middle part is flat, with a curve in verticale plane.

i remember now you describing this before....
do you mean: that the top and bottom have a curvature? or corrugations? and the center of the ribbon (lets say 1" with 1/2" above the flat surface and 1/2" below the flat surface has corrugations?/curvature)?

OR is this like a racing stripe that runs down the center of the ribbon vertically but nothing at all in the exact center?[/quote]

I'm not sure either, but I was thinking that it would look more like a cross-section of a speaker cone - the usual corrugations at the ends so that it could move freely, and then a "racing stripe" corrugation in the center section to make it stiff.

Edit: You what would be a phenomenally cool forum feature? A bare-bones little draw program. It's a PITA to create a sketch, upload it, link to it, etc. If you could hit a button to fire up a little sketch window, mouse in a quick diagram, and post... wow.
 
> A bare-bones little draw program.

I agree; though we can't ask Ethan to spend days programming just to save folks a few minutes.

It also gets us back to the storage-space issue: the sketch has to be stored somewhere. While I believe Ethan's boss would wink at a little storage, if people got busy the space could grow too large to overlook.

Can you find an embeddable draw-tool?

Can you find it in any phpBB forum?
 
[quote author="PRR"]> A bare-bones little draw program.

Can you find an embeddable draw-tool?

Can you find it in any phpBB forum?[/quote]

No, but a man can dream... :)
 
[quote author="ToobieSnack"]i think xvlk means thicker than 10um... that WOULD be nonsense right?

ALSO:
so the middle part is flat, with a curve in verticale plane.

i remember now you describing this before....
do you mean: that the top and bottom have a curvature? or corrugations? and the center of the ribbon (lets say 1" with 1/2" above the flat surface and 1/2" below the flat surface has corrugations?/curvature)?

[/quote]

There are two pleats of usual horizontal corrugation on the ribbon ends, and the center is flat, with slight curve in vertical plane to make the construction rigid.
 
[quote author="PRR"]Therefore to mass-match, the ribbon thickness/width ratio should be 2,000/0.78= 2,600. For a 0.25" ribbon, 0.000,1" foil.
[/quote]
PRR, nice.
In practical world there will be some coef, often funny
called "Bulgarian constant"
Determined experimentally for given mic construction.

Because: ribbon is not alone in the air - pole pieces & velocity transform.
and ribbon is corrugated &.....

xvlk
 
>> Therefore to mass-match, the ribbon thickness/width ratio should be...
> PRR, nice.

Is my derivation correct, within the stated goal of "a first-crack" approximation? That is, it gets you about the right number of zeros, not the exact answer.

There are of course several very rough approximations. Air-mass depends on the baffle. A totally open ribbon has low air-mass, a ribbon sealed in a large baffle will have higher air-mass. And I ignored the fact that we really have a leaky edge between the ribbon and the baffle. I ignored end-effects. I used very-round numbers for mass of air and aluminum. I solved for equality, but there may be reasons to prefer one mass to be greater than the other. (In particular, thicker foil is easier to handle, so we might be "forced" to higher ribbon mass to build a practical mike.)

However this should tell you if you want sheet-metal, food-foil, cigarette-pack foil, or you must hammer-out aluminum leaf even thinner.

Beyer made some ribbons much narrower than RCA's. I wonder how thin they were.

> In practical world there will be some coef, often funny called "Bulgarian constant"

The Hungarians I worked with called it something else.

Yes, there will be many factors tipping the optimum one way or the other. Corrugations make a big difference: they increase aluminum mass and resistance. For best bass-mid sensitivity, we would use a limp flat ribbon. But that will have awful resonances.
 
[quote author="PRR"]
Therefore to mass-match, the ribbon thickness/width ratio should be 2,000/0.78= 2,600. For a 0.25" ribbon, 0.000,1" foil.
[/quote]

Yes, that's about what I got in practice. The change of thickness below 2-2.5um foil does not change sensitivity because of coupled mass of air. There is however change in sound because of resonant modes of the ribbon itself and damping effect of air. I made a few 0.6um ribbons and their increased impedance completely offset all the benefits.

Beyer made some ribbons much narrower than RCA's. I wonder how thin they were.

Some RCA's (77D, if I am not mistaken) are as narrow as Beyers. They are short and as a result need to be well damped to avoid resonances.
 
hey everyone

i have new neo's 50x5x1 mm

I am using the ratio for my ribbon and.....damn!

at 1:10 the width comes to 5mm!!!! :shock: !!!
this can't be right... :sad:
50mm is almost 2"...why are my calculations so different...(TCA 74b vs the tsxv-1)
am i doing something wrong?

50/10=5

to get the ribbon to 3 mm I had to calculate at a 1:16.5 ratio!!!!!!

50/16.5=3.03....

what should i do?

I am inclined to use the 1:16.5 ratio and see what happens....
obviously:
the resistance will go up....
mass will go down....
i really just can't imagine a 5 mm ribbon!!!! THAT'S HUGE!! :shock:

anyway please help!!!!

later
ts

PS i going to measure my existing gap ... dependant upon my ring material selected.... I have a mock up.
 

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