rough cost estimate of a custom console

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angelo2979

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 24, 2008
Messages
74
Hi all,
I have this Idea bothering me, of a custom console acting as a nice routing matrix to get mixes OTB without any sound coloration, with hands on faders and outboard integration.
And I finally decided to post here....thought it could be a nice and fun topic  ;D

THE IDEA

the idea is simple. I d'like something as transparent as ever, signal coming out from the AD converters should ideally null out to what comes out from the console. I don't want features I don't need , like preamps or summing (I would use external summing). So the board should just be a bunch of channels with a double signal path, arranged as follows:
Line in/bus trimmers and phase switches -  8 pre/post auxes + 8 or16 busses (only things needing a dedicated summing section) -  a couple of insert switches for quick insert comparison - Nice large faders -
small faders or knobs for path B (mostly used as returns) - Solos, mutes, etc,  and that, more or less, is it.

An Eq section, going from a simple LPF/HPF filter design to something nicer and more expensive, could be included depending on costs...

As for the master section, I would use external sum,  so it could be as simple as a couple of trimmers for the auxes/busses. Other features would be chosen depending on costs (from a monitor/talkback system to some cool mastering processing -like an M/S matrix and so on)...

- The point is, shortest signal path, highest quality on components and paths, with compromise rather applied to the number of features then on the sound quality itself.
... actually I can see that Speck's Lilo shares the same design concept (even if I don't know what's inside those boards), but as you can see I want more routing options, no summing, and diy prices..

THE QUESTIONS

- Given the info above, would you, experienced users, be able to give me a rough estimate of how much such a channel strip could end up costing just looking at the BOM?  (yes sir, just for fun)
- Should such a simple design include transformers, or would it be electronically balanced? - Or, I'd rather ask, what choice would be better, given that "no coloration" is the main purpose here?
- Would you have any design notes or suggestions for such a project?
- Does it make sense to you to go the DIY/Custom route ? Would both my wallet and my ears thank me for that?

Any input is appreciated! Thank you.






 
I'd lose the dual inputs and use a dedicated returns section instead. And I'd dump the 8 pre/post sends and have one pre and the rest post - how often do you need a prefade send? You can always use the insert send as an output if you need it pre-fader

If it's really minimal then I think the frame, metalwork, knobs, faders, transformers & meters would be the bulk of the cost. The channel board could be quite simple - but would take a lot of design time

Nick Froome
 
the point in having dual inputs is reducing size for compactness... so second channel could be as simple as a trimpot, this way it should not affect costs (I guess). About sends, yes, that's an option; pre fader could be nice with parallel compression, but yes, post fader is way more common.

so, what's your rough estimate?  :)
And you say transformers, so I guess you believe that's the only quality route...right?
 
About every year, the same topic comes back; very often leading to lengthy threads that end nowhere.
For a start, search in this group, you will see that the subject has been beaten to death and , as of today, nothing has come like a real piece of gear.
There are good reasons for it; building a mixer is a task that requires many skills, a lot of time and a significant amount of money, for a result that may not be very satisfactory.
Before asking what and if transformers, there are several more important subjects such as mechanics, understanding longitudinal noise and power distribution.
 
If you want to learn how to build a console, with all of the mechanical, electronical, and psychological vision quests involved, then DIY is the only way to do it.  Be warned an assumption of "diy prices" does NOT apply, and there are costs beyond currency. 

If you are a busy mixer and require equipment as specific as described then I would recommend cobbling it with available products inside and outside the box.  Your workflow is unique to you, but it can most likely be satisfied with a crafty combination of existing things.  If you have time between mixing projects and want to build something in a metal box, then maybe start with a 2x8 channel insert box wired to the patchbay with your equipment because that seems like the top candidate not available.  The project requires metalwork skills, neat wiring, breadboarding, but not any serious topology decisions.  If you find you love making dsub holes in a metal chassis and looking for tracking problems on a 32 DPDT relay breadboard then you move on to bigger and better things.  The insert project will not be a waste as it will be engulfed by the console.

As for an estimate, figure about 10,000 euros per channel for time and materials.  Most of that dough will be spent not on the finished product but on a big box of circuit experiments that didn't sound colorless, mis-drilled panels,  obsolete PCB's, layout re-do's, switch-knob-connector samples, bloody bandages, bottles, etc.  When someone here shows the console they built from scratch it is the result of DEEP work, much deeper than "DIY".
Mike
 
Ok, sorry, didn't want to put mess into the forum. I've been looking for a similar topic, but I really thought this was something simpler then what has been actually covered before, because it did not involve a master/summing section, etc, and it looked like a much simpler AUX/BUS routing matrix - as long as I thought it was about a bunch of Opamps, relays and standard stuff  ::) - where each channel was independent.... 

And even if  you say I was wrong - and I thank you for illuminating me - my question was not related to my skills and project difficulty level .  As the Subject Title says, I asked your opinion for a rough per-channel cost estimate based on what you think such a design could involve - and no, I've not found any specifically related discussion;
asking about transformers may be appropriate then, as it could really change the price factor..or maybe such a question should be reformulated: for the sake of high quality clean sonics, and for the sole purpose of an estimate, should transformers be taken into account? ...and then, if you wish, Why? Do you think the quality factor of a transformer balanced circuit could not be matched or surpassed by an electronically balanced design?

I apologize if these questions/topics are not interesting, since I'm still a kid in audio electronics. And just for clarity, I know my skills are too limited for such a project...still, I'm asking this, both to learn something and because I could have the opportunity to ask the collaboration of a pro tech, for a custom design work, but I don't want to spend more of what the project is worth or get fooled because of my ignorance! That's it. Knowing how much would it cost on parts would help me have a better understanding of what they ask me, and help me compare to commercial products...

...and @sodderboy I think 10K per channel is a lot!! simply too much for what the project is. 

But, again, if such a topic is not appropriate or annoying to more experienced users, I'll be happy to abandon, still thanking you for your efforts.  Bye.

 
angelo2979 said:
As the Subject Title says, I asked your opinion for a rough per-channel cost estimate based on what you think such a design could involve
Cost per channel may be anything from $50 to £500, depending on type of switches/pots and yes, transformers. A significant part will be the PCB and metalwork. This is after you have spent significant money on breadboarding, prototyping PCB's and metalwork.
  and no, I've not found any specifically related discussion;
You haven't lookes hard enough. use the Search facility, search for mixer or console in rthe Drawing Board, you may find something like that
http://groupdiy.com/index.php?topic=59376.0
asking about transformers may be appropriate then, as it could really change the price factor..or maybe such a question should be reformulated: for the sake of high quality clean sonics, and for the sole purpose of an estimate, should transformers be taken into account? ...and then, if you wish, Why? Do you think the quality factor of a transformer balanced circuit could not be matched or surpassed by an electronically balanced design?
If you want dead clean, forget about xfmrs. Their only advantage is true galvanic isolation, which is important in some applications, like OB vans, but unnecessary in any half-decent studio environment. Tried and proof circuits like those of THAT are close enough to perfection.
But, again, if such a topic is not appropriate or annoying to more experienced users, I'll be happy to abandon, still thanking you for your efforts.  Bye.
No need to apologize. I don't want to discourage you, but there is a wealth of advice in this group, I recommend you read all related threads. Just don't get embarked in a "Magic Alex" project.
 
that's nice, precious information... and I'll look harder, promised! 
As for transformers, you confirm my readings... I knew they're preferred for isolation and sonics, even if I'm afraid these days they get used a lot more then necessary in this era of nostalgia, just to give the illusion of better recordings  ::). Colors maybe sell better... But for example, am I wrong stating that newer SSL consoles are transformerless? At least for what regards line in/out...while I guess older models employed jensens (?!) ... And aren't those THAT chips ubiquitous among consoles?

Cheap talk, anyways... thank you, I'll go back to my studies
 
angelo2979 said:
that's nice, precious information... and I'll look harder, promised! 
As for transformers, you confirm my readings... I knew they're preferred for isolation
Yes, that's a hard fact.
and sonics,
This is very debatable. A number of people have come come to associate transformer distortion with euphonicity, just like others swear that tape recording sounds better because that's the sound they have grown up with.
But for example, am I wrong stating that newer SSL consoles are transformerless?
That's correct.
while I guess older models employed jensens (?!)
Certainly the first generation of SSL mixers used transformers, but they quickly moved to electronically balanced ins and outs.
... And aren't those THAT chips ubiquitous among consoles?
A market they share with TI (INA134/137, DRV134/135) and at a time with SSM (2141/2142).
 
You can probably find a secondhand DDA / Amek / MCI-type console that's fitted with P+G 3000 faders, for about half what the faders would cost you new. You could change the opamps (assuming you have the test gear and chops), fit it with custom panels from Schaeffer and call it your own console  ;D
 
That's of course an option.  A nice one if you find such a console in usable or worthy conditions, and you live in a part of the world where a deal like this makes sense and is no surprise.
But it's a different thing also... I doubt that changing opamps to DDAs etc would make these old boards colourless...I think even modded they would not be comparable to a much more compact unit with the shortest signal path possible (am I wrong?).
So you'll have to deal with a lot of other features, and maintenance and running costs and downtime, etc.
Not to mention each model is a different world...an MCI 5 is very different from a 600..
while the idea here was something cheap, transparent, compact, just for hands on controls and routing duties (and parallel processing made easy of course)

 
angelo2979 said:
while the idea here was something cheap, transparent, compact, just for hands on controls and routing duties (and parallel processing made easy of course)

I think you are looking for something like the SSL X-Desk

https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug09/articles/sslxdesk.htm

 
the SSL Nucleus is a very nice little unit for DAW control and some I/O

I think everyone into audio DIY has at some point dreamed of building a big console, but as said already, the topic has been discussed many many times, once you've read through a few of those threads, the task of actually building a console suddenly turns from a mole hill, into a mountain lol ...and that's assuming you already know all the circuits you want to put into the console in the first place, how they all sound and work together in a chain; that alone is a lifes work imo


worth checking out peoples 500 series console builds, a far more achievable goal, and with massive amounts of flexibility, plus you can build it in parts, which means you have something to use in the studio, rather than spending 5 years to design and build a console and nothing to play with in between


also, if you are coming from a digital/DAW perspective, then your expectations in regards to noise and control accuracy, might outweigh your budget; a good quality, single stereo 47 position stepped attenuator for eg, which still doesn't provide the same accuracy/control as a DAW plugin, will set you back $250 or more  :eek:
 
The short answer is about 10x what you will be able to sell it for. If there is a commercial product that will suit your needs it will be much less expensive than building a prototype.
 
Since the topic has been so beaten to death I have just one question:

which problem are you looking to solve with this question?

Don't answer.

You gave us parameters perfectly in equivalence to everything digital has ever done for us.

Goodbye
 

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