Stuff you might can use: Pads, Phantom and Phase.

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rlaury

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2004
Messages
331
Location
Nashville, Tn
Hi group:
I thought I might offer these to the group before adding them on my web site.
In racking up all types of modules that don't have there own 20dB Pad, Phantom on/off, and phase switch, we're faced with the problem of adding these features. The most common way of adding theses features is to route the signals up to the front panel through toggle switches, and then back to the XLR in's and outs. This is labor intensive due to the care required in routing the in's and out's and handling of the shields. The switch required for the Pad must be of very high quality designed to handle uA currents at Millivolt levels. (regular miniture 2 amp toggle switches ADD DISTORTION!) and are unreliable. The best way is to use relays located directly at the I/O's to do the job. This also has it's challanges in that most low level qualified relays require PCB mount and have no way to neatly chassis mount. In new designs that include designing a PCB for a pre-amp we can add these features to the PCB. But this solution has it's problems too with switching relays within a high gain can cause pops reguardless of
how much snubber circuitry you add.

Several years ago after racking up 4 Collins mic-pre's and 6 RCA pre's for a client in one sitting, I decided I might could make some money doing these custom jobs if I didn't have to spend all my time doing this repetitive and time consuming wiring. I decided to solve this problem by developing the XLR interface PCB's. The XLR female has a relay switchable pad using a high quality AROMAT SX relay with a guarnteed minimum switching level of 10uA @ 1 Mv signal. It also uses Vishay, ultra low noise RN55 1% resistors for the 20Db pad, and RN60 6.8K 1% resistors for the phantom feed. The XLR connector is the NEUTRIK D type, 2 part PCB connector. This allows you to mount the metal shell to the outside of your chassis and then attach the connector and PCB assembly from the rear as one unit. A small screw driver slot locks them together.

The XLR Male connector uses the same mounting technique and flips the phase when the relay is activated.
Both PCB's have the snubber circuits. The phantom feed point is bypassed with 2ea .22uF 100V film caps.
The relays are 12VDC but I can offer 5V, 12V, and 24V also. The pad is 20 dB +/- 1 Db designed for 150 ohm microphones feeding a 1500 ohm typical input.

XLRF1.jpg

XLRF2.jpg

XLRM1.jpg

XLRM2.jpg

XLRSILKM.jpg

XLRSILKF.jpg


If these can be of use to you guy's, email me at:
[email protected].
 
Excellent work!

Folks, these will work excellently for the SSL 9k Mic preamp!

I think that JLM audio has a similar idea with all three on one board, but if you don't want a pad, or you want the phase reverse to happen at line level (which is not a bad idea, BTW) then this is a great idea!

Top marks Ron! :thumb:

Keith
 
I've been in electronics for years, and I don't think I've ever seen a "low level qualified" relay. I've seen special high frequency relays for RF applications. I'm familiar with common DIP "small signal" relays, but they're certainly neither exotic nor hard-to-find parts.

Anyway, got a link for these relays? I'd like to learn about them. I'm assuming that these must be designed for a very low and stable contact resistance.

I'd also be interested in more detail on the distortion-generating mechanisms inherent in mini-toggles.
 
Yeah, sure ... nice work.

I think a few of us have many PCB's that use the NEUTRIK type PCB mount XL's. Both vertical and horizontal. Some have relays and some have FET switching and some even the VCA's we like so much ... etc ....

Some of the guys here even sell them professionally. Most of the PCBs I make and or get made here at work I don't offer through the forum BUT I do swap and give away all sorts of other stuff with other members of these forums.

Yes I am beating about the bush and perhaps I'm just too altruistic.

Does anyone use the Black Market section ?
 
BellLabs has a spec for low level qualified relays. I'm not sure of the number. I'll see if I can locate it. I found out about it the hard way when I worked at Auditronics. Here's the deal, if it doesn't have gold crossbar, or wiping action contacts, it won't RELIABLY switch MIC levels.

As far as distortion, It is very measureable. You can take an ordinary new relay (not low signal) and it's distortion will measure fine. Now, let it set a few days with no signal on it and with out moving it around or bumping it, re-check it. Also connect one to your pulse generator and cycle it say, 10,000 times to put a little mileage on it and then measure the distortion. 6 out of 10 times it will be ok, but the other 4 distortion will be 10X higher. Remember, we're talking MIC levels.
I just try to use the best parts I can.

RonL
 
[quote author="rlaury"]... I found out about it the hard way when I worked at Auditronics. [/quote]


oooh !! :shock:
:green:
how long ago .... ??
I have a pair of 501 Son of Grand desks.


err
relays ... I know someone who likes to use very small telecommunication reed switch type relays. Lots of reliability and fully sealed ... blah, blah
 
I worked there 1973 to 1975. Whew!
The 501 was the thing. the LM709 was king!
I'm not sure if you know this but, Auditronics built
all the Spectronics consoles, the 610 limiters, EQ's and Power amps.
I remember A/B'ing the 501 mic pre with the Jensen transformers and a SpectraSonics 101 mic pre and thinking "you know, this really sounds pretty good." The SpectraSonics 101 cards were difficult to build. beta matching, 1% resistors ect. The LM709 and the LM301 let us spend money on other features like routing sweepable Eq's and other features. That's what made the "Son of 36 Grand" possible. Updated, it's a very good sounding desk. I also did some of the design on the 110 Broadcast console.

Cheers
RonL
 
I have two desks as I said.

My main working desk is in good condition and had some changes. These changes include 5534 chips and some mods to the FET mute arrangement.
Some of the line inputs have had the gain/level changed to suit the units permanently patch in them.

This desk is a stereo front and back version.

I do have some Jensen trafos from the second desk but generally I go external for Mic-pres.


The second desk is not in such good condition.
It is a Left Centre right and then mono rear. The LCR is difficult to explain and it's not what you first think. This makes it hard to use in a normal Music Production way.
Still deciding what to do with it.

It has some extra options that include some sort of ancient automation system that is far from working. It also has VCA units for master fading.

I like my Auditronics 501.
Perhaps they have your work inside ... :green:
 
Looks great!!

I also have good results with Aromat TQ2 relays, very small ones too...
Around US$3 ea.

cheers!
Fabio
 
[quote author="Svart"]i was directed here from another post, but i see no pictures. are these still availiable?[/quote]
Same question here, be it years later: may we have a look at those pics again ? Might be waht I'm looking for and if so, are these still available and what's the cost for PCB-only ?

Thanks,

Peter

The Netherlands
 
[quote author="rlaury"]BellLabs has a spec for low level qualified relays. I'm not sure of the number. I'll see if I can locate it. I found out about it the hard way when I worked at Auditronics. Here's the deal, if it doesn't have gold crossbar, or wiping action contacts, it won't RELIABLY switch MIC levels.

As far as distortion, It is very measureable. You can take an ordinary new relay (not low signal) and it's distortion will measure fine. Now, let it set a few days with no signal on it and with out moving it around or bumping it, re-check it. Also connect one to your pulse generator and cycle it say, 10,000 times to put a little mileage on it and then measure the distortion. 6 out of 10 times it will be ok, but the other 4 distortion will be 10X higher. Remember, we're talking MIC levels.
I just try to use the best parts I can.

RonL[/quote]
Usually for low level signals they recomend bifurcated contacts for reliable switching. It doesn't take much oxide to change a switch contact to a rectifier.
 
[quote author="rlaury"]Sorry.

I took them down a while back.


RonL

http://www.nashaudio.com[/quote]
Thanks for uploading these again :thumb:

Hmm, bummer, I see those are for the vertical PCB mount; the pile I have is all the NC3MD-H-B / NC3FD-H-B
(3 pole receptacle, horizontal PCB mount, black metal housing, gold contacts).

I checked the pin-configurations & -spacings in the pdf's at:

http://www.neutrik.com/content/products/level03.aspx?id=204_269621&catId=CatMSDE_audio

and I guess it'd get a bit untidy and or wobbly to force those types in your PCBs, not ?
Or do you think those horizontal ones can work as well with your PCBs ?

(Do you have these still available BTW and what do they cost ?)


Regards,

Peter
 
Interestingly, recently I was preparing to build a hi-fi preamp and found the designer was using toggle switches for pads and phase, not relays. He leans more towards audiophool type, very serious about clean signal, gold contacts, quality wire, etc. I asked why they weren't using relays. He said it's well known that in pro audio people prefer relays, while in hi-fi people prefer to avoid relays -- precisely for the reasons stated above, unreliable, corrosion, distortion, etc. Instead they use quality toggle switches.

Funny how the two schools are opposite on this point.

I myself decided some time ago to forgo relays and just do everything best I can with quality toggles.
 
[quote author="tommypiper"]He said it's well known that in pro audio people prefer relays, while in hi-fi people prefer to avoid relays -- precisely for the reasons stated above, unreliable, corrosion, distortion, etc.[/quote]
Exactly !
I'm using two Marantz amps of comparable age, one for the hi-fi in the living room and the other one for the monitor speakers for home-recording.
Guess which one of the two has developed speaker-relay problems - the PM64-II for the hi-fi of course. :twisted:

It's #1 on the repair-list, the first five minutes the distortion is horrible but I haven't been able yet to find fitting new relays.
 

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