The Vaccine

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fallout

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That's nice and all but doesnt fit the bill.

Someone please explain how 'vaccine passports' or 'vaccination cards' make ANY sense besides control? You certainly can't argue that someone with a vaccine passport can't spread the virus less than an unvaccinated person. In fact, they're more likely to spread the virus since vaccination status is enough to 'allow' them to participate in certain aspects of society. One step closer to tyranny.

If you're below the age of 70.. Your chances of survival from catching covid are above 99%. We need mandates for this?
 
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ruffrecords

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Stats can be easily manipulated. Vaccinated people can get just as sick as unvaccinated and wind up in the hospital and unvaccinated can be asymptomatic or have a mild case just like the vaccinated. Your chances of getting more than a moderate case hasn't change since post/pre vaccines. Most will not get very sick vax'd or unvaxed. Both still spread the virus and that's the bottom line. I'd argue that the vax'd are spreading it more since they have a false sense of protection and are not forced to get tested (work, concerts, etc). This has gotten beyond silly. Vaccinating children for Covid? Government mandates? Give me break. This isn't about Covid, it's about compliance and control.

"We believe" boosters "will likely" give you the highest level of protection yet. - Fauci on Booster shots

What a fraud.
You are forgetting it is not about what CAN happen to vaccinated and unvaccinated people. It is about the proportion of each group to which these things DO happen. A greater proportion of unvaccinated people end up in hospital. A greater proportion of unvaccinated people die.

The point is nobody knows for certain how vaccination will affect a specific individual but you can talk about the evidence gained from significant numbers of people and talk about likelihood..

Personally I would rather comply than die. You are free to make another choice.

Cheers

Ian
 

JohnRoberts

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My favorite covid news story this week is about a district in CA(?) that is mandating mask wearing while at home indoors.

I live alone and its going to take some persuading to get me to mask up while home alone. :unsure:

JR
 

fallout

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Personally I would rather comply than die. You are free to make another choice.

Of course! I guess that's my gripe. We're almost to the point where we're not free to make that choice unless you're willing to give up your livelihood. I'm fine with people making their own decisions about vaccination and if it's worth it to them. I already had Covid and don't currently have a need for vaccination, especially since my age group has a survival rate above 99%. In fact, I think most age groups except those above 70 yrs of age have a 99% chance of survival. Mandates make no sense except for destroying small businesses and the middle class.
 

Script

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My favourite Covid news tidbit here in Japan is quite old, dating back to the time when safety of the vaccine was still a topic.

Innoculations were going full swing. Happened that a 79-year-old male had his first shot, got up and the moment he passed through the booth door, he dropped dead on the floor.

At the same time, a 38-year-old male employee came out of a supermarket with groceries in hand. The moment he step through the front doors, he dropped dead on the pavement.

Investigation post-mortem showed that the old guy had had several comorbitities but no previous Covid infection and that the vaccine pouch in his upper arm muscle was still fully intact.

The young guy however had had no identifiable comorbitities whatsoever but had been asymptomatically Covid-infected with high viral load and experienced a very sudden deterioration that led to exitus.

They then visited their homes to find more clues. The investigation result as quoted by newspaper stated that the old guy lived single and had a full fridge, whereas the young guy also lived single but his was empty.
 

ruffrecords

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Of course! I guess that's my gripe. We're almost to the point where we're not free to make that choice unless you're willing to give up your livelihood. I'm fine with people making their own decisions about vaccination and if it's worth it to them.
I don't get that with vaccination. Lock down yes, it has destroyed many livelihoods but high vaccination levels are what prevent lockdowns. Europe right now is in the process of entering 4th lockdown for precisely this reason. The UK has just as high infection levels but because the the higher vaccination levels only 5% of patients in hospital have Covid.

Cheers

Ian
 
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scott2000

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fallout

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I don't get that with vaccination. Lock down yes, it has destroyed many livelihoods but high vaccination levels are what prevent lockdowns. Europe right now is in the process of entering 4th lockdown for precisely this reason. The UK has just as high infection levels but because the the higher vaccination levels only 5% of patients in hospital have Covid.

Cheers

Ian
First, I don't believe lockdowns are necessary for a virus that has a 99% (approx.) survival rate for most of the population. Yes, lockdowns absolutely destroy small businesses. However, here in the US, the government wants overstep and mandate vaccination for employees of businesses with more than 100 employees. That would absolutely crush small businesses. If the vaccines stopped the spread of the virus that would be one thing but they don't. We were fed a bunch of bullshit. It's obvious that the goal of the US government is vaccine passports/vaccine cards which is one step closer to absolute tyranny.

It's great that the vaccines have the potential to lessen the symptoms of the virus but there's also other treatments that work but the powers that be won't allow their use so that they and big Pharma can line their pockets and gain complete control in the process. No thanks.
 

Script

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Thanks for the link to the NHS report. Interesting. The age group of 30-39 in that table looks quite alarming for the unvaccinated but explicable as (1) vaccine intake of that group in the UK stands at only 70% (it says elsewhere in that report), (2) AZ has minimal lower effectiveness (hence mRNA booster), and (3) risk behaviour of that age group might be estimated to be a bit higher (possibly).

In the report summary it says:
'
Estimates suggest that 127,500 deaths and 24,144,000 infections have been prevented as a result of the COVID-19 vaccination programme, up to 24 September.

Naturally, the report does not estimate the Covid treatment expenses that the programme has saved (monoclonal, dexa, pain relief etc etc), nor does it estimate how many (small) businesses in the UK it has saved.
 

fallout

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Yeah.Suppose it would be nice if everyone would be vaccinated so at least people would just be people and there would only be one column to talk about or not...
It'd be nice for everyone to be forced to do something they don't want or need? That's crazy talk.. haha

I have an even better idea! How about add another column (or 2) how many reinfections/deaths for those who were previously infected with Covid. My guess is that number would be ridiculously low.. That's a number they don't want anyone knowing, that's for certain.

I know that it's rare for unvax'd folks who caught Covid to be reinfected. I don't think there's any argument there at least not at this point. I wonder how many vax'd folks have been reinfected. I'd hope that vax'd folks have a low reinfection rate as well but again, they'd never want us to know THAT number.
 

scott2000

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Script

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Yeah, to me people are people (Depeche Mode, no ?). And one column, better no columns to talk about, I guess, is what we all want and really need.

Taking vax ratio into account, and only as such valid, Northern Ireland data are in fact more explicit than UK data.

Hospital Admissions
• 70% of adult COVID-19 inpatients aged under 50 are unvaccinated. 20% of COVID-19 inpatients aged 50 and
over are unvaccinated.

• Unvaccinated individuals aged 50 and over are almost 5 times as likely to be admitted to hospital with COVID-19 than fully vaccinated individuals.

• For adults under 50, whilst the numbers admitted to hospital are lower, an unvaccinated individual is almost 11 times as likely to need hospitalisation from COVID-19

Reading those numbers, I can understand that some people have lost patience.
 

scott2000

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Reading those numbers, I can understand that some people have lost patience.
Yeah for sure... It's still confusing to me in some regards. They should just write the bullet points..lol
I think someone posted an Atlantic article on what some of the US hospitalizations actually mean in context and where the concerns lie. But it was at the beginning of the Delta surge so , unless there's another similar study, probably moot.
The death rat chart in that report is broken down a bit differently. Little disturbing but, all is to be expected from what I understand.
 

ruffrecords

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I read that and it all seems pretty straightforward to me. It is clear that vaccination significantly reduces the chances of symptomatic Covina and also of hospitalisation. It is also clear that although the protection wanes with times, a second jab boosts it even higher than it was after the first one and even more after a third jab. What I found most interesting was that vaccination also significantly reduces the chance of infection - and people who are not infected cannot transmit Covid. Also good news was that 98% of the population has Covid antibodies. Bottom line - vaccines work.

Cheers

Ian
 

ruffrecords

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First, I don't believe lockdowns are necessary for a virus that has a 99% (approx.) survival rate for most of the population.
There is no evidence for that statement
Yes, lockdowns absolutely destroy small businesses. However, here in the US, the government wants overstep and mandate vaccination for employees of businesses with more than 100 employees. That would absolutely crush small businesses. If the vaccines stopped the spread of the virus that would be one thing but they don't.
The data shows that the vaccines do indeed reduce the spread of the vaccine.
We were fed a bunch of bullshit. It's obvious that the goal of the US government is vaccine passports/vaccine cards which is one step closer to absolute tyranny.
Please rmemeber that the US is only a small part of the world. Elsewhere things are completely different. If you disagree with your governmanr then stand for office and change things. At least you live in a democracy where that is possible. The poor sods in China don't even have that freedom.
It's great that the vaccines have the potential to lessen the symptoms of the virus but there's also other treatments that work but the powers that be won't allow their use so that they and big Pharma can line their pockets and gain complete control in the process. No thanks.
What are these incredible alternative treatments we have been denied?

Cheers

Ian
 

Tubetec

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We seem to be changing tac here in Ireland regarding children masking up , now the advice has changed to include children as young as 9 years old requiring masks in indoor public spaces . May have been a serious mistake not to have done this before now . Its still problematic as regular adult masks wont fit children very well .
 

scott2000

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I read that and it all seems pretty straightforward to me.
Yes, all those points make sense. It's just the way it's presented with the numbers in the graphs that is a bit confusing.Not that it isn't clear. Just a bit more work to try and figure out what the numbers mean and how exactly they are being calculated and what some terms mean in context.

Even the 2nd jab thing seems to have different meanings in context of the immunocompromised and it looks like my Dad and a few other people may have dodged a bullet running around like a free bird after the first shot..... From their citings...


"When stratifying into
groups of specific conditions the only group where VE was notably diminished was the
immunocompromised group. In the cohort analysis, VE after one dose of any vaccine was just 4.0%
(95% CI -31.5% to 29.9%). However, this increased to 74.1% (95% CI 48.8% to 87.0%) after 2 doses.
In the TNCC, dose 2 effects were similar but dose 1 VE was 18.3% (95% CI -18.4% to 43.7%)."



Not related but this thing on pregnant women is interesting


"Adam Finn, a professor of paediatrics at the University of Bristol and a member of the JCVI, said: “It does now seem clear that not only does Covid in pregnancy bring an increased risk of premature delivery but also pregnant women are more likely to get seriously ill than non-pregnant women of the same age. So there’s a need to communicate that effectively and that can probably most effectively be done by midwives."

"Pregnant women are among those that some members of the JCVI, which advises the government on vaccine policy, are most concerned about. However, some scientists have privately accused the JCVI itself of being slow to advise that the vaccine was safe for pregnant women."

"Another member of the JCVI, Dr Maggie Wearmouth, said: “The message is just not reaching many pregnant women"



In addition to leaving it up to the midwives, maybe it's around that time the JCVI should update their info?


"JCVI have advised that there is insufficient evidence to
recommend routine use of COVID-19 vaccines during pregnancy, however, vaccination
should be considered for pregnant women at high risk of exposure or of serious
complications. "
 
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cyrano

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What I was afraid of, seems to have happened. The new variant in South-Africa contains a lot more mutations. This might mean it is far more contagious.

What remains to be seen, if it is more deadly.

Hospitals are at a dangerous point here in Europe. Most IC units are filled up to maximum capacity with COVID patients. Other patients are on a waiting list. And medical personnel is tired, very tired.

Not a good moment to force all medical personnel to be vaccinated. But there are no other options left. Unless you consider doing nothing and letting tens of millions die an option.
 
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