V72t repair - what resistor / part

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barthman.de

Well-known member
Joined
May 26, 2007
Messages
98
Location
Erfurt / Germany
I have an old V72t preamp here and it is defekt. The folowing part ist broken:


resistor.jpg


As far as I know it is a 3k3 resistor (in schematic) but not a normal resistor with the folowing symbol:
symbol.gif


Could it be a varistor or what the xxxx could it be? Do somebody know a good replacement part? :cry:
 
I do not know.

The part in your picture is very strange.

I found a schematic but without voltage values. So this is guesswork.

The arrow implies a variable resistor. Usually we use a 3-leg potentiometer; however it could instead be a "selected" part, factory tested to work with the transistors on the board (and perhaps re-selected if a transistor must be replaced).

W9, W11, W12 set the base bias on T2a T2b. Why?

The collectors of T2a T2b must swing very large voltage to drive emitter followers T3-4a-b. I think the supply for T2 is 30VDC and for T3-4 is 12V. T3-4 must be forced 10V up and 10V down, we lose some voltage swing in W13 and W14, therefore we need the 30V supply for T2, and we need to set the collectors of T2 to idle very nearly half of that 30V supply.

I do not see any reason it needs to be temperature compensated. -Maybe- it needs temp to pass a strict German broadcast spec in extreme temperature, but not for a flavor preamp in a recording studio.

Select a resistor to make voltage at point "F" and "F'" about half of the voltage at point "N". You can simply read voltages at W14a-b. One end will be about 30V. The other end, with W11 broken, may be about 5V.

I calculate that the "right" value of W11 is 2,000 for high-gain transistor and 3300 for a very low-gain transistor. This suggests using a 3K3 variable resistor, as the schematic shows.

But variable resistors, like potentiometers, are unreliable. Since you will not be changing T2a-b (if you do, you can change W11 at the same time), I think you should temporarily put in a 2K2 resistor.

Measure points F and F', compare to point N. If points F are too high, increase W11 to 2K7. Go to 2K0 or 3K3 if that is what it wants.

Points F F' do not have to be accurate. If N is 30V, then points F may be 13V to 17V and it will work fine. They could be 10V or 20V and it would still "work fine" but might not meet the original Max Output specification. If 2K2 is too small and 2K7 is too high, then 2K5 is perfect, or close enough for all practical purpose.

When you find a happy resistor, solder it in to last another 40 years.

Point F and point F' do not have to be exactly the same, though the difference should be less than 2V. There is no way to trim this. If they are very different, then T2a T2b are poorly matched, though they would have to be at the extremes of the Hfe=40-200 range to give trouble.
 
Thank you for your full description. I'll try some resistor values and then I'll see what values are on the measuring points.

It's realy interesting what you say about F and F', the values are realy different but only 0,3V. I'll make a frequency test later.

Edit after repair:

I used 1K8 and all values on measuring points are great. :thumb: :guinness:
 
I was glad to soon. :? I changed the resistor to 1K8 an all values was fine. Then I tested the unit puting some sine waves thru it. But suddenly after some minutes there was a terrible sound - like self oscillation or saw tooth wave. So I checked the values on the measuring points again. I found out that on point K was only -0,48 V (there must be -1,75 V). The values on K', J, H / H' are o. k.

So I think the T4a (Germanium OD603) is damaged. What do you think?
 
[quote author="barthman.de"]
Could it be a varistor or what the xxxx could it be? [/quote]

Hi,
it's NTC (old symbol).
You may find whole service manual in German (with test points voltages and NTC role explanation) on Darius's site http://audio.kubarth.com/.

Regards,
Milan
 
[quote author="moamps"]

You may find whole service manual in German (with test points voltages and NTC role explanation) on Darius's site http://audio.kubarth.com/.
[/quote]

I know the Kubarth site and of course I have the dokuments here but I never looked on side 2 of the V72t description (I only looked on the schematic :green:) . So thank you for the information.

But now one of the OD 603 seems to be defectiv. This original Germanium transistors are expensive.
 
[quote author="barthman.de"]
But now one of the OD 603 seems to be defectiv. [/quote]

Hi,
just flip the OD603 from T8 place to the T4. For the T8 (power supply) you can use any medium power SI PNP transistor (BD140 etc).
Regards,
Milan
 
I am not certain that the idea to take the OD603 from the power supply is optimal. The germanium transistors in these kind of applications were often matched and delivered in pairs. And I think this might be the case in this one as well.
Before I continued I would definently also try to get hold of a suitable varistor.
 
Original
OD603 PNP Ge Power T0-66
CTP1104 PNP Ge Power TO-66 (40V, 3A, 40W)

Si Alternates
BD176,BD240, 2N4898, 2N3740, 2N6312


same used in C12 Power supply
 
I'm resurrecting this old thread because I need to repair one.
Please someone can share schematic of v72t?
Seems that all links are broken.
Thanks
 
Could be a thermistor or ntc.
For thermal stabilization of the working points.
Best regards
Original
OD603 PNP Ge Power T0-66
CTP1104 PNP Ge Power TO-66 (40V, 3A, 40W)

Si Alternates
BD176,BD240, 2N4898, 2N3740, 2N6312


same used in C12 Power supply
You must change some other resistors, bcause the working points of germanium transisitor totally different. Also they have a problem of their transition frequency.
Best regards
 
Could be a thermistor or ntc.
Sure it is.
For thermal stabilization of the working points.
Yes. The stabilization system is very complex with two ntc's working together.
You must change some other resistors, bcause the working points of germanium transisitor totally different.
Actually, the behaviour of current Si BJT's is so different than their Ge counterpart that the whole thermal stabilization system should be totally reworked.
Not a simple task!
 
Schematic V72t
Thank you very much.
Sure it is.

Yes. The stabilization system is very complex with two ntc's working together.

Actually, the behaviour of current Si BJT's is so different than their Ge counterpart that the whole thermal stabilization system should be totally reworked.
Not a simple task!
I think latest interactions are about 13 years ago but of course changing GE to SI needs to rework the circuit.
Only to put something interesting and new on the table: I remember that Triton Audio d20 claims to be designed with heritage of v72 but if I remember well the one "desktop" unit I repaired contains FETs and a pentode so isn't something based on V72t or a v72 (tube).
Could be interesting a v72t reproduction with SI instead of GE ?
I'll base my considerations repairing and testing this 72t.
I have here a V72 (original, tube version) to compare.
 
I think it will create a completely different sound imprint. You can't compare transistors and tubes.
Best regards!
 
I think it will create a completely different sound imprint. You can't compare transistors and tubes.
Best regards!
But I mean to change original GE design to Si and adapt the circuit to build a reproduction if I found v72t "interesting" respect to tube version.
 
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