We have your data ,now we want your body parts after your gone as well .

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Tubetec

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It appears misappropriation of your data isnt enough for the current administration  here in Ireland , now they have passed a law that says unless you specifically 'opt-out' they are  quite entitled to strip your body down for spare parts after your gone  as well.

And all of this came about unsurprisingly with a medical man at the helm .
Its not that medical experiments ,organ retention/misapropriation wasnt always going on here , its very much a feature of the 'Mother and Baby homes' scandal as well as being common is cases where babies were very sick and died soon after birth.
The justification has always been 'the advancement of science' and to 'help the sick'  .

We have heard repeated claims by 'Childrens Minister' Katherine Zappone that the DNA of the children found at the mass graves in Tuam ,Co. Galway  could be difficult or impossible to extract , yet according to witness's the remains are incredibly well preserved ,not to mention the advanced state of the art of DNA collection and testing.
Currently the bodies of the children found at Tuam reside in the hands of the state , can we seriously trust the state to conduct an investigation into its own turgid machinations ?
To pass a law allowing for organs to be harvested/traded even before the full implications of the Tuam( and many other institutions) babies have been investigated is monsterous ,
Of course in our heart of hearts we all know what the DNA of the babies will reveal , that the people who were put in positions of power were riding all around them .

Welcome to Leo's 'Nanny Republic' ,autocracy  under a minority government , he's already tossed our mortal souls to social media and big business ,now he just has to wait around for the left overs .
At this rate I can't see us making the 100 years aniversary of the foundation of the state without the pot boiling over again  :mad:
 

Heikki

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Tubetec said:
now they have passed a law that says unless you specifically 'opt-out' they are  quite entitled to strip your body down for spare parts after your gone  as well.

We've had that in Finland since 2010 and I think it's great. If I end up brain dead they can possibly save somebody else's life with my organs.
 

JohnRoberts

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Heikki said:
We've had that in Finland since 2010 and I think it's great. If I end up brain dead they can possibly save somebody else's life with my organs.
+1 you literally can't take your body with you....

JR
 

Tubetec

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What would you say if after death your organs were harvested  ,auctioned for a vast amount of money and exported somewhere else? ,wanting to help  for the sake of the greater good is honourable enough , but for me an opt-out system is a step too far , they've got it backwards and it will end up misused . look at social media ,opt-out its being misused left right and centre

Here in Ireland we're only scratching the surface of Government/Church run institutions , mortality rates especially for small children were totally beyond any reasonable standard of care in the western world ,at least one major pharmaceutical giant is implicated in unethical  vaccine trials ,thats the tip of the iceberg .

The latest from  Government  here amounts to a social media mute button for negative press related to vaccines ,
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/social-media-companies-must-decide-which-side-they-are-on-in-vaccine-debate-1.4013674






 

gyraf

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The major problem on having it as a opt-in system is that nearly no one will want to think of it in due time, so major part of usable spares are wasted.

I for one really like the re-use idea..

Jakob E.
 

Phrazemaster

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john12ax7 said:
Why do you feel you have a right to another person's body without getting permission first?
If they're dead...they can't give permission...

I see both sides of this. I think defaulting to opt-in helps more people. Those vehemently against it can and should opt-out. We don't want your stinky organs anyway. (kidding!)
 

Tubetec

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Yeah thats precisely the point  , you are free to do as you please with your remains after your gone ,Ive no issue with that , but to attempt to make that assumption on someone  elses behalf  ,if your marching down that road you might as well start making a call on who gets to reproduce and who doesnt for the embetterment of the culture/race/species  .

Even if 51% of the population agreed with manditory organ donership ,its a hideous proposition to attempt to impose that on the other 49% who dont , would  the ones who object to having their  organs misapropriated  then need to be forcibly  tattooed for identification in the event of an untimely death ? 

As I said earlier in this post the moment something like this goes through in a country its like money in the bank to central government , the fact that many many people organs (or the profits from the sale of ) accrue to the state counts as surety on loans , it fundamentally changes the relationship between the state and the individual ,and the public didnt get a say on any of it  in Ireland .







 

Phrazemaster

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Tubetec, I totally respect your point of view.

But I’m genuinely curious - why do you care? You will be dead forever, or possibly in a better place.

Respect,

Mike
 

cyrano

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john12ax7 said:
Why do you feel you have a right to another person's body without getting permission first?

I don't.

Until that person dies.

And even then, it still isn't me who gets the organs. But someone who needs them. Like a researcher, or another person who would like to live a bit longer.

Just like any other resource you own,  it gets redistributed. It's natural.
 

Tubetec

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Ok so lets imagine a hypothetical situation ,

A suspected bank robber is shot by police , wounded, potentially fatally if he doesnt recieve the help he needs fast ,
could we end up with a system that just ships you in one door alive and out the back door in multiple pieces for the sake of expediency and profit ,all under the banner of helping the sick ?

Theft of body parts for research was common place in this country (Ireland), relatives of mine had it done to their baby , I used know an old boy , now deceased, he told me first hand how he had ferried still or new born babies that had died  from a state hospital to  a private institution  in little shoe boxes on the back of his bike  ,he was only a child himself at the time .

In the absence of a proper enquiry into what could well amount to many thousands of babies in mass unmarked  graves here
I think not only do we have a right to question whats going on , we have an obligation to do it .



 

gyraf

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Yes, need to verify that being-dead is at 100%, otherwise the equation dosen't compute.

But this is a strawman argument, isn't it? - no one will disagree that you actually and wholly need to die before being part of this idea.. And if you don't want to participate - for subjective, religious, or any other reasons, your decision should off course be totally respected. I don't see any reason to apply pressure for "persuading" non-volunteers..

But the default-to-spareparts-unless-otherwise-claimed will BOTH make pool of spares bigger AND save a lot of people from having to think about hard issues WHILE still providing an opt-out for those that don't like it.

Around here (DK, Eurozone), left-behind family can also resist spareparting - not even having to pool in with parts of their own to do so..

/Jakob E.
 

Kingston

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Heikki said:
We've had that in Finland since 2010 and I think it's great. If I end up brain dead they can possibly save somebody else's life with my organs.

exactly this. if what used to be me is of any use by that time, make it so
 

Tubetec

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I see the Scandinavian countries have quite a positive outlook towards this whole business . Its clear Ireland has a very low take up rate for organ donation and thats why some bright spark came up with the plan to try and auto appropriate .It isnt and wont become manditory to opt out of organ donation in Ireland any time soon .
 

cyrano

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Most countries in western Europe do.

It's just the catholic nations that still resist. It takes centuries to get rid of that indoctrination...
 

Tubetec

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You can just put it all down to indoctrination easily enough if you want , but when the Church and State and Big medicine were playing pass the parcel with peoples organs its bound to make people even more sceptical about the whole subject.

Spain a predominantly catholic country seems fairly high in the organ donation list per head of population .
Below is an old study ,but might give a better baseline of public opinion on the subject than any figures complied after compulsory harvesting had started up .

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC219643/
 

cyrano

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I'd suggest you do your own research...

http://www.irodat.org/

You can use the database and draw your own conclusion.

The differences in numbers are relatively small. Ireland seems to have strong opinions and has the lowest numbers of the countries I looked at. Also some ups and downs over the years. Other countries mostly go up, slowly.

A worldwide graph is in this report:

http://www.irodat.org/img/database/pdf/IRODaT%20Newsletter%202019-March.pdf

The world list from that document, for 2018. The numbers are from 2017 for a lot of countries.

Mark that Germany is in the bottom end. Struck me as odd.

Croatia, Spain, Portugal, Slovenia and Italy have ones of the best rates in actual deceased donors in the world.


 

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