What percent of your brain do you use while shopping?

[JohnRoberts]

There is a popular sci-fi theme where they give the lead character a drug or injection and magically they unleash the rest of their brain to make them super-smart. Like most good science fiction there may be a little truth therein. We are wired since cave man days to only use a fraction of our meat computer for day to day decision making so the rest of our brain is free to keep us alive.

Marketers and merchandisers use this low horsepower decision making process to their advantage to influence us to buy their crap commodity product vs, the next guy's crap commodity product with coarse messaging. (Buy this brand beer and you get laid... yadda yadda).   

Today while i was doing my weeks grocery shopping, on my list was picking up some non-prescritption NSAID anti-imflammatory medication as i try to wean myself off the prescription meds (for my arthritic knee) that is running out in about a week.

After doing some research reading through the medical studies it seems that all NSAIDs get the exact same medical warning despite being different chemicals. Long story short i found one that tested better in a comparative study, WHILE THEY ALL HAVE THE EXACT SAME OFFICIAL WARNING, but I ramble...

I memorize the real name of the widely advertised brand name over the counter medicine to look for a generic at my local Walmart...  Sure enough I find a Walmart store brand generic version of the widely advertised medicine but guess what? A little quick mental arithmetic reveals that the actual Brand name drug with all the advertising budget cost less than half the price of the generic version.

That is not just stupid that is insane, but apparently people do not bother to check the actual price and just ASSume that the generic version is lower cost.

I suspect this goes on more than we realize. Especially in politics but we are only fully rational when we force ourselves to shift gears do all the math.

Of course maybe i'm wrong.

JR

 

[ruairioflaherty]

The classic example of this is the bigger packs of toilet paper.  We are programmed to assume that buying more gives us a better deal but often the price sweet spot is the mid size packs, price per roll actually goes up on the largest pack size.

 

[PRR]

> Brand name drug with all the advertising budget cost less than half the price of the generic

Could be a screw-up. Perhaps the Brand dropped their price and WallyMart hasn't caught-up.

But: SAME packaging? I've bought three auntiehistamines over the decades, original and generics. After the first exclusive profit harvest, they diversify the same drug different ways. Pills. Capsules. Slo-release tablets. 100-bottle and 9-pill purse-pack with individual foils. There can be a jaw-dropping per-dose price difference among the various offerings.

OTOH-- a certain instant coffee is a pantry staple here. Used to be 8-oz jar. Then a 12-oz, but that was too big for the spoon. Then they made the jars flimsy, so I kept an old 8-oz and filled it from the 12-oz size, figuring it wuz cheaper per dose. But then WalMart didn't re-stock the 12-oz. For a month. Finally I looked at the per-oz price breakdown, and realized the difference wasn't worth thinking about (like a penny an oz).

 

[Kingston]

Also of notice is the same formula comes up with macaroni. Also no different to ordering op amp samples vs. in 10k units. The very closest store next to us has macaroni for ultra cheap, just like any other. And now look at the "family package" they have somehow taught us is cheap...

Don't know about you stateside bu EU has luckily forced everyone to display prices by kg/mg whatever common unit in that class of product you are shopping. It's always the fine print but it's there.

 

[Kingston]

A bit of trivia, did you know the US threatened this tiny country of Finland with trade embargoes when Finland forced these laws on meds? There was even a "coldening of diplomatic relations" or whatever they call it in the official jargon. Buy your meds, and the store is absolutely forced to tell you by law whichever brand is currently the cheapest. No need for manual calculations and even the absolute moron is safe.

Big pharma is not used to being forced to play fair.

[edit]

Should be mentioned, this still doesn't cause the socialist dream of evening out the odds against unfair marketing and immoral business practices. Morons do still buy whatever they are told to buy.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Nah a trade war with Finland wasn't in the headline news... I'm still a little disappointed that big pharma sells drugs cheaper everywhere else but in the US.

I don't know about being forced to play fair, they do get forced to charge less than they do here.

====

My generic being a lot more expensive than the brand name was perhaps because of a special promotion... the brand name had one of those get 30% more free offers. There was also a huge price difference between 24 dose and 100 dose (or in my case 130 dose) bottles.

But even the 24 dose of generic was slightly more expensive than 24 dose of the brand name.

FWIW the brand name pills were made in Germany, who knows where the generic version is made. I wouldn't be surprised if it comes from the same factory.

I do not know if it is law, but there is per unit or per whatever comparable pricing at my local Wallyworld, but it is work to check both between brands and different sizes for every single item you buy when shopping.

JR 

 

[PRR]

> there is per unit or per whatever comparable pricing at my local Wallyworld

Shaws, Hanaford, Carrols all shelf-mark price per pound.

WalMart marks price per ounce. Makes for a lot of */16 mental math.

 

[ruairioflaherty]

Don't know about you stateside bu EU has luckily forced everyone to display prices by kg/mg whatever common unit in that class of product you are shopping. It's always the fine print but it's there.

Haven't seen that here in California, it was very convenient back home.

 

[etheory]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_percent_of_brain_myth

 

[ln76d]

There's a really good tv series called "cash investigation", made by french television.
http://www.realeyz.tv/en/cash-investigation-disease-branding.html
Unfortunatelly i couldn't find online version in english, maybe someone will have more luck.
It's about corporation scam - pharmaceutic buissenes or even the consumer electronic market (apple, samsung) etc.
"Disease Branding" is about pharmacy - really good one!
Pharmaceutical industry is the most profitable business in the world, so what we can expect?
What about Beyer roots? In their past also it was only business...
ADHD syndrom? Fighting with B17 research? What about growing market of dietary supplements (the one of the best scam ever)?

John - for the arthritic knee i really recommend magnetic field therapy, it makes miracles - it saves my knees

 

[JohnRoberts]

> there is per unit or per whatever comparable pricing at my local Wallyworld

Shaws, Hanaford, Carrols all shelf-mark price per pound.

WalMart marks price per ounce. Makes for a lot of */16 mental math.

At least we can do that math in our heads.. many can't or don't bother, while it is work so we often defer to making decisions without complete investigation.

I have given some though to how people make decisions for use in marketing, and often they respond to indirect influences, like the pretty girl in the ads.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

There's a really good tv series called "cash investigation", made by french television.
http://www.realeyz.tv/en/cash-investigation-disease-branding.html
Unfortunatelly i couldn't find online version in english, maybe someone will have more luck.
It's about corporation scam - pharmaceutic buissenes or even the consumer electronic market (apple, samsung) etc.
"Disease Branding" is about pharmacy - really good one!
Pharmaceutical industry is the most profitable business in the world, so what we can expect?
What about Beyer roots? In their past also it was only business...
ADHD syndrom? Fighting with B17 research? What about growing market of dietary supplements (the one of the best scam ever)?

Good margin for patented drugs on the back end, but large up front R&D costs to develop the drugs. Once drugs go off patent it gets more competitive.

A shame that vitamins and similar supplements don't get same degree of research because they can't be patented and sold for huge profits. However the entire medical community is more about treating symptoms than curing disease.

John - for the arthritic knee i really recommend magnetic field therapy, it makes miracles - it saves my knees

I will look into that.. Apparently magnets have been used for mitigating pain for centuries, and is a multi-billion dollar industry world wide (magnets and magical metal, like copper bracelets). A quick review of the research does not reveal any strong correlation but a few statistically insignificant positive results. 

I applied a very strong magnetic field (MRI). I am dealing with osteo-arthritis in my knee caused by sports related deterioration of knee cartilage, torn meniscus, etc. I have determined empirically that strong anti-imflammatory medication, "and" stopping my basketball and running has quieted down my knee, but now after about 3 months I need to get off the meds, that have their own risk factors.  It appears that all NSAIDs get the same caution warning so there are probably better/worse candidates among the several NSAIDs (including aspirin).

There are several theories for why magnets help, and most sound like nonsense, but I do not know that anybody has studied this on the cellular level.  I suspect if it really worked the doctors would be prescribing them.

The multi-billion dollar alternate therapy market is yet more evidence of less than critical thinking by humans, especially when in pain.  ;D

JR 

 

[joaquins]

There's a really good tv series called "cash investigation", made by french television.
http://www.realeyz.tv/en/cash-investigation-disease-branding.html
Unfortunatelly i couldn't find online version in english, maybe someone will have more luck.
It's about corporation scam - pharmaceutic buissenes or even the consumer electronic market (apple, samsung) etc.
"Disease Branding" is about pharmacy - really good one!
Pharmaceutical industry is the most profitable business in the world, so what we can expect?
What about Beyer roots? In their past also it was only business...
ADHD syndrom? Fighting with B17 research? What about growing market of dietary supplements (the one of the best scam ever)?

Good margin for patented drugs on the back end, but large up front R&D costs to develop the drugs. Once drugs go off patent it gets more competitive.

A shame that vitamins and similar supplements don't get same degree of research because they can't be patented and sold for huge profits. However the entire medical community is more about treating symptoms than curing disease.

John - for the arthritic knee i really recommend magnetic field therapy, it makes miracles - it saves my knees

I will look into that.. Apparently magnets have been used for mitigating pain for centuries, and is a multi-billion dollar industry world wide (magnets and magical metal, like copper bracelets). A quick review of the research does not reveal any strong correlation but a few statistically insignificant positive results. 

I applied a very strong magnetic field (MRI). I am dealing with osteo-arthritis in my knee caused by sports related deterioration of knee cartilage, torn meniscus, etc. I have determined empirically that strong anti-imflammatory medication, "and" stopping my basketball and running has quieted down my knee, but now after about 3 months I need to get off the meds, that have their own risk factors.  It appears that all NSAIDs get the same caution warning so there are probably better/worse candidates among the several NSAIDs (including aspirin).

There are several theories for why magnets help, and most sound like nonsense, but I do not know that anybody has studied this on the cellular level.  I suspect if it really worked the doctors would be prescribing them.

The multi-billion dollar alternate therapy market is yet more evidence of less than critical thinking by humans, especially when in pain.  ;D

JR 

I have a badly broken knee, sports, sailing in fact. Long story, already 9 years since I have first symptoms appeared, only getting worse. I learned to live with the pain pretty much now, but's not funny, also I need help to walk, I'm ok for short distances inside but two blocks away is to much without crutches. About the magnetic therapy, it did work a bit for me, applied over a lot of pain killers it helped a little bit more, where almost not heavy strong anti-inflammatory  did nothing on me, there are several different types of magnetic functions, depending on waveform and frequency I guess, one of which works as anti-inflammatory, did worked for me, and my doctor prescribed it. FWIW all my bigger problems are related with some ligaments, but there are some other things going on. What I learned empirically is that doctors don't know a s**t.

JS

 

[Andy Peters]

Don't know about you stateside bu EU has luckily forced everyone to display prices by kg/mg whatever common unit in that class of product you are shopping. It's always the fine print but it's there.

Here in the colonies, the shelf price labels (which are required to be present ...) are supposed to have unit pricing. Sometimes that print is very fine. And sometimes they'll have a sale and the sale price shelf label won't have the unit price.

I can do the unit price math in my head, except when on product has a unit price per ounce and the competitor has a unit price per pound (or quart or whatever). A smartphone with an HP calculator emulator helps

But I do always check, and John is right, sometimes the name brand is cheaper. But usually not, except when it's on sale.

The other thing to watch for are combination medicines, like cold meds. I find it's generally cheaper to buy the pseudo-pseudoephedrine, the acetaminophen, the antihistamine and the cough suppressant separately rather than in one "COLD MEDICINE." Also I tend to take the Sudafed daily, and the others only as needed.

 

[JohnRoberts]

What I learned empirically is that doctors don't know a s**t.

JS

amen brother... My last doctor appointment ended abruptly when he instructed his assistant to escort me out when he grew weary of my questions.. Yes I have more F'n questions. 8)

They just treat the obvious symptoms and tell you to wait until something changes... glorified car mechanics working on self-healing cars.

Of course maybe I am wrong

JR

 

[PRR]

> combination medicines, like cold meds.

Well, that's just a stupid concept.

If you have a cold you do NOT want the common antihistamines, they are for allergies, they make colds worse.

Likewise don't do cough suppressants if you don't have a cough. (And learn the difference between numbing agents which leave the snot in, and expectorants which loosen the snot.)

And you ought to have asprin/acetaminophen in the cabinet anyway. And if you have hay-fever, an antihistamine of your choice, for *allergy*, not for virus.

And sugared coffee and chicken soup.

I did a Sudafed when they were new, 40 years back? and thought it was bad stuff. Did little for my nose and messed-up my mind. (Note that you can't buy a basket of Sudafed today, it's used for cooking recreational drugs.)

Loratadine (compare to Claritin!) in the morning works better than the old Dristan every few hours with nearly NO side-effects. My brother went on it before it was OTC and tole me to do it, but it took 20 years for me to take his advice. Chlorpheniramine Malate (compare to Chlor-trimeton!) is an older antihistamine that I use in evening when the tree-buds are stronger than the Claritin. (Also a 1st-choice in dog allergies, so we always have some around.... my Pyr took more than I did.)

 

[PRR]

> doctors don't know a s**t.

For US medicine, there's a book How Doctors Think, Groopman.

Very thoughtful and thought-provoking. (For we medical clients, but also as an analog to electronics diagnostics, amp-fixin'.)

However..... after reading half of it, I had an extremely painful and mind-bending "gas attack". Reminds me of before my appendectomy, but it can't be that again. I set the book aside and have felt fine. So.... dunno.

 

[Andy Peters]

> combination medicines, like cold meds.

Well, that's just a stupid concept.

If you have a cold you do NOT want the common antihistamines, they are for allergies, they make colds worse.

Likewise don't do cough suppressants if you don't have a cough. (And learn the difference between numbing agents which leave the snot in, and expectorants which loosen the snot.)

And you ought to have asprin/acetaminophen in the cabinet anyway. And if you have hay-fever, an antihistamine of your choice, for *allergy*, not for virus.

And sugared coffee and chicken soup.

I did a Sudafed when they were new, 40 years back? and thought it was bad stuff. Did little for my nose and messed-up my mind. (Note that you can't buy a basket of Sudafed today, it's used for cooking recreational drugs.)

Loratadine (compare to Claritin!) in the morning works better than the old Dristan every few hours with nearly NO side-effects. My brother went on it before it was OTC and tole me to do it, but it took 20 years for me to take his advice. Chlorpheniramine Malate (compare to Chlor-trimeton!) is an older antihistamine that I use in evening when the tree-buds are stronger than the Claritin. (Also a 1st-choice in dog allergies, so we always have some around.... my Pyr took more than I did.)

Of course you're on the mark, except I don't believe in doctoring my coffee with any non-coffee substances. It's just the the marketing guys have figured out that most people want to treat "the whole problem" so they'll ask for cold medicine, and get three different meds at four times the price in one bottle, rather than actually reading the fine label and realizing that they probably already have the stuff in their medicine cabinet.

I tried Claritin (or at least the generic) when it first became OTC and it didn't do squat. Zyrtec (cetrizine) works better for me. And yes, chrlortrimeton is pretty great when you need it, 'cept it usually lasts for only four hours.

Speaking of antihistamines, why should I buy a name-brand sleeping aid with acetominophen and diphenhydramine when I can buy each separately? One benedryl is enough to knock me out, so two an hour before bed keeps me sleeping through the alarm clock.

I recently bought some old-school "papers, please!" pseudoephedrine.  Clears your head like immediately, but damn I got the zooms, more than I remembered. I've noticed that Actifed, which was actual ephedrine, not the pseudo- stuff, isn't even on the pharmacist's back shelf. So the phenylephrine seems to work well enough.

My favorite pain reliever is ibuprofen 800, which is 4x the dose of the standard issue stuff. At 200 mg it's an analgesic; at 800 mg it's an anti-inflammatory. And even though it's a big dose, I tolerate it better than naproxen (Aleve), and I thought that celebrex was drilling a goddamn hole in my stomach.

Oh, here's marketing for you: I know of several women who swear by the name-brand Motrin for their monthly needs. They refuse to use the generic ibuprofen. Go figure.

 

[JohnRoberts]

My favorite pain reliever is ibuprofen 800, which is 4x the dose of the standard issue stuff. At 200 mg it's an analgesic; at 800 mg it's an anti-inflammatory. And even though it's a big dose, I tolerate it better than naproxen (Aleve), and I thought that celebrex was drilling a goddamn hole in my stomach.

Oh, here's marketing for you: I know of several women who swear by the name-brand Motrin for their monthly needs. They refuse to use the generic ibuprofen. Go figure.

I am interested in anecdotal information about NSAIDs as I wean myself off meloxicam. I already have bottles of ibuprofen and and aspirin in my cupboard, but just picked up some naproxen after reading a medical study that revealed it was was less likely to cause strokes or heart attacks at least in this one study.

I notice that all NSAIDs have exactly the same warning notice which makes me suspicious about regulators or big pharma trying to keep them from differentiating between themselves.

@ Andy, what was your issue with naproxen?

Prior to my recent contact with the medical community that resulted in a prescription anti-imflammatory I would often use one aspirin and one ibuprofen to mitigate soreness... Obviously I was not using enough to prevent the arthritis in my right knee.

I suspect humans respond to these different chemicals differently so studies that are not properly blind and large enough may be meaningless.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

> doctors don't know a s**t.

For US medicine, there's a book How Doctors Think, Groopman.

Very thoughtful and thought-provoking. (For we medical clients, but also as an analog to electronics diagnostics, amp-fixin'.)

However..... after reading half of it, I had an extremely painful and mind-bending "gas attack". Reminds me of before my appendectomy, but it can't be that again. I set the book aside and have felt fine. So.... dunno.

Sounds like an interesting book, and probably a little depressing.

I have been critical of the medical profession but I do not blame the doctors as much as the system, or lack of optimal use of modern technology.

Perhaps this is still early days but the flaw in the current doctor as lone expert, is limited by the individual doctors limited personal experience, and flawed human memory. What we need is some way to accumulate all the practicing doctors experience into a single database or expert system, decision making engine. I suspect IBM with their "Watson" project may already be looking at this, but we need to find some way to connect all the dots, identify patterns and trends over the entire data base of doctor-patient interactions, not just one doctors personal experience.   

JR

PS: Fixing amps does not strike me as much like doctoring. Amp circuitry is defined by simpler rules and less variables than the human experience. Give me an amp to fix any day...