Which Transformers for passive transformer box ? (Edcor, Carnhill, Lundahl )

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Erazorblade

Member
Joined
Jan 16, 2016
Messages
19
Hello there,
I am about to built a simple passive transformer box for use on my mixbus or other busses (line level) and am searching for some transfromer I can simply wire up in a box from IN>OUT. I found some info on the net where someone used Carnhill VTB 2281 and Lundahl LL1528 transformers for that purpose.

Does anybody have some suggestions which other models could be used for that purpose?
Edcor has some relatively cheap transformers in their WSM/XSM/PC/etc. line, but which of them would be suitable for subtle color on busses and which ratio would be advisable?

I am also open for other suggestions of course.

Cheers and thanks!
 
A lot depends on the drive capability and output impedance of your existing buses (note there is only one S in bus and only two in total is BuSeS). Many old mixers were expected to be able to drive a 600 ohm load so you could just use 600:600 transformer and be reasonably certain of preserving the entire audio spectrum. If your bus outs cannot drive 600 ohms then you probably need to think of using a step down transformer, say something like 2K4:600. The only downside is you will lose 6dB of level.

Both Edcor and Carnhill do decent 600:600 and 2K4:600 transformers. If you want tone you are best sticking to transformers with steel lamination (like the Edcor and Carnhil). Jense, Sowter and Cinemag tend to use hybrid cores for lower distortion which I guess is not what you are looking at. I do not know about Lundahl.

Cheers

Ian
 
I think we need a database of transformers that saturate in an audibly pleasing manner,  although much is also professional preference.

You will ultimately need to buy a few and experiment. Edcor and OEP seem like good candidates. Get some of the lower power ones and see if you like the results. 
 
ruffrecords said:
A lot depends on the drive capability and output impedance of your existing buses (note there is only one S in bus and only two in total is BuSeS). Many old mixers were expected to be able to drive a 600 ohm load so you could just use 600:600 transformer and be reasonably certain of preserving the entire audio spectrum.

Both Edcor and Carnhill do decent 600:600 and 2K4:600 transformers. If you want tone you are best sticking to transformers with steel lamination (like the Edcor and Carnhil). Jense, Sowter and Cinemag tend to use hybrid cores for lower distortion which I guess is not what you are looking at. I do not know about Lundahl.

Cheers

Ian

Thank you, the idea would have been to use it like an insert in my DAW. There would be just my interface between the transformer box Interface Line out-> Transformerbox -> Interface Line in.

 
Erazorblade said:
Thank you, the idea would have been to use it like an insert in my DAW. There would be just my interface between the transformer box Interface Line out-> Transformerbox -> Interface Line in.

Not all interfaces are created equal and many modern ones cannot drive a 600 ohm load. Which interface do you have?

Cheers

Ian
 
ruffrecords said:
Not all interfaces are created equal and many modern ones cannot drive a 600 ohm load. Which interface do you have?

Cheers

Ian

I've got an Antelope Zen Studio. Would you say thats a problem?
 
Erazorblade said:
I've got an Antelope Zen Studio. Would you say thats a problem?
Very difficult to say. I checked their web site and the spec says absolutely nothing about the output drive capability. However, if you are going to use it directly between an interface output and one of its inputs you might try looking for something like 2K4:2K4 or even a 10K:10K transformer. For colour you should look for a small sized transformer so something like the TRIAD TY-144P might do. I have used these to isolate a VU buffer because a VU does not mind a few percent distortion  :D or you might try on of the Rdcoe PCW series.

Cheers

Ian
 
for distortability but decent control within contemporary A/D/A conversion levels, try the Monacor LTR110

perhaps even with a variable 0-500 Ohms resistor in series with its drive
 
ruffrecords said:
Very difficult to say. I checked their web site and the spec says absolutely nothing about the output drive capability. However, if you are going to use it directly between an interface output and one of its inputs you might try looking for something like 2K4:2K4 or even a 10K:10K transformer. For colour you should look for a small sized transformer so something like the TRIAD TY-144P might do. I have used these to isolate a VU buffer because a VU does not mind a few percent distortion  :D or you might try on of the Rdcoe PCW series.

Cheers

Ian

Thank you Ian for th valuable information! I'm gonna try this out. In the meantime I ordered already the Carnhill VTB 2281which is a 600:600 tranny, lets see how that works out. According to how that sounds I might be looking for other ratios. It's interesting that there isn't a much bigger discussion about that.
 
gyraf said:
for distortability but decent control within contemporary A/D/A conversion levels, try the Monacor LTR110

perhaps even with a variable 0-500 Ohms resistor in series with its drive

Thank you, I am looking more for gentle color to round off the "digital edges" instead of distortion. Would you say it is still suited for that?
 
ruffrecords said:
Not all interfaces are created equal and many modern ones cannot drive a 600 ohm load. Which interface do you have?

Cheers

Ian
What determines the output drive capability? My Mixer has an output impedance of around 30 Ohm. Is there more to it than just the output impedance? Or is it safe to say, that my Mixer can drive 600 ohm?
 
The drive capability is determined by the circuits used.  The TL07x type opamps are one of the few that can't handle 600 ohms. Most other common output circuits can,  NE5532, DRV134, THAT1646.

You should generally not have problems with an audio interface,  or a mixer main output.  However some mixers did use TL07x on the inserts,  so that is one place to look into more.
 
It would be interesting to look under the hood of a few common 'interfaces' to see exactly what audio output ICs they use. I bet very few use NE5532, DRV134 or THAT1646.

Cheers

Ian
 
My thinking was a NE5532 is so cheap these days why not use it,  even in budget gear? It's possible that is incorrect.

The Lynx Aurora is a very common converter, OPA134 iirc.
 
john12ax7 said:
My thinking was a NE5532 is so cheap these days why not use it,  even in budget gear? It's possible that is incorrect.
No matter which IC you use, if you want to be able to output +20dBu into a 600 ohm load, that is an rms voltage o 12.9V, a peak voltage of 18.2V and hence a peak current of 18.2/600 amps which is 30mA. Put 16 of these in a box an your maximum power supply current draw is 480mA. You might argue all the signals are uncorrelated in which case the current draw would be only 120mA but with a +/- 15V supply that is generated from a USB bus, you are going to be asking the USB bus for at least 750mA. USB 3.0 can supply 900mA but anything less is not going to work.

Change the load to 2K (which is within TL072 territory) and the current drops to 225mA. Change it to 10K and the current is a mere 45mA.

Cheers

Ian
 
Erazorblade said:
Thank you, I am looking more for gentle color to round off the "digital edges" instead of distortion. Would you say it is still suited for that?


For the price it's a pretty good transformer, very useable.
I'm using some to balance synth outputs.

They sound pretty decent.
 
80hinhiding said:
I just want to say watch out about going down the rabbit hole of transformers and boxes to create color.  It can be just what you need/want, but it can also be a real eye opener that what we have already is a big gift.. and we should just get on with making music.

Thank you for your insight. In fact it is more like an experiment to me, to see how far I can go with it. I am pretty happy about my hybrid mixes (mostly itb), but I am always on the search for new things. I have some analog units here in my studio which I like, just using their box tone, without even fiddling with the knobs and enjoying what their circuit is doing to the audio. I thought similar about using a passive transformer box.

Now you're absolutely right about the performance and the arrangement of the song etc., but being mostly a mixing and mastering guy, this is usually not something I can influence. Probably this passive box is not what I am looking for, so worst case I am gonna use these for future projects and it still was a fun little DIY experiment. If on the other hand, it is what I am looking for, then I'm even more happy.

Theres a pair of Haufe RK494, Carnhill VTB2281 and Monacor LTR110 on its way to me. Lets see what happens. Also still looking for edcor transformers, just don't know yet which model to try of their line transformers. If anyone else has some other suggestions, would be great!

Cheers
 
One important point I forgot to mention. Just because you connect a 600:600 transformer to the output of your interface does not mean it is driving a 600 ohm load. As I has said many times before, transformers do what it says on the tin - they transform voltages, current and impedance according to their turns ratio. A transformer has no intrinsic impedance of its own. If you stick a 600 ohm load on the output of such a transformer it will reflect it (transform it) to look like a 600 ohm load at the input and hence only then will your interface see a 600 ohm load. If instead you connect it to a 10K input impedance line level input, the transformer will do its best to reflect that impedance to the primary and show it as a load to your interface.

A 600:600 transformer is only called 600:600 because it gives its best audio performance, particularly in terms of frequency and phase responses at the extremes of the audio range, when working at that impedance. If you drive it and load with with different impedances then its performance may not be optimal.

The bass end response is determined primarily by the inductance of the primary. This inductance appears directly in parallel with the primary.A good 600:600 transformer will have sufficient inductance such that its inductive reactance will be a lot higher than 600 ohms across the greater part of the audio band. At the bass end of the spectrum, as the inductive reactance decreases, it will eventually drop to 600 ohms and the response of the transformer will therefore be 3dB down at this frequency. Really good transformers have sufficient primary inductance that this happens well below 20Hz but to achieve this means more turns of wire, possibly a bigger core and hence more expense. Cheaper 600:600 transformers cut corners on both core size and number of turns so the primary inductance suffers. The inductive reactance will often be 600 ohms or less at 20Hz. How do they get away with it? The answer is simple. Most modern circuits have an output impedance much lower than 600 ohms - 100 ohms or less is typical so even if the transformer primary inductive reactance falls to 600 ohms at 20Hz, the  response will be less than 1dB down.

The other thing to rememeber is that transformers do not care how heavily you load them; all that happens is you lose some bass but transformers do not distort when loaded heavily. They will reflect that heavy load back to your driving amplifier and it may distort but the transformer will not. The only external factor that directly affects a transformers distortion or colour is signal amplitude. High signal amplitudes cause the core to saturate and it will do this more easily at frequencies below 100Hz than at any other frequency. Inside the transformer, what determines the signal level at which saturation occurs is the core material, the core size and the number of turns. Good quality transformers have big cores made of steel with lots of turns so they can handle higher levels. The VTB2291 can easily handle +20dBu at 20Hz with very little distortion.

The more exotic core materials like radiometal and mumetal produce a lot less distortion than steel but saturation occurs at much lower signal levels (for a given core size and number of turns). This is why they are use a lot for mic input transformers where the signal levels are low. They still distort more below 100Hz though just like steel cores.

So if you want to produce transformer colour across the audio spectrum it might be an idea to use a low turns ratio mic input transformer, roll off the input below 100Hz to even out the distortion across the entire audio spectrum, then restore the bass at the output.

Cheers

Ian
 
ruffrecords said:
So if you want to produce transformer colour across the audio spectrum it might be an idea to use a low turns ratio mic input transformer, roll off the input below 100Hz to even out the distortion across the entire audio spectrum, then restore the bass at the output.

Cheers

Ian

Wow, thanks for your time and all this valuable information. Really appreciate that.
Recently I found a statement from gearslutz, which made me thinking again:
(Post #10 and #12 from this thread: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-much-gear-so-little-time/1124490-transformer-box-color.html)

"One of the reasons API op amps have such powerful output stages is so they can drive their transformer properly but the same transformer in a circuit driven with 5532 or 5534 op amps (or less capable models) will put a severe strain on the source or kill it."

"Absolutely. The way any given transformer behaves is down to many factors, drive circuit, load, cable capacitance signal level and the frequencies you expect to pass through the transformer. As noted, at very low frequencies the 'impedance' of the transformer will lower towards the winding resistance which can severely overload some amplifiers making them distort, often in a nasty way, or even destroy them.
Matt S"

Now is there really a risk to destroy my interface by just hooking them up in the chain?
 
Erazorblade said:
Now is there really a risk to destroy my interface by just hooking them up in the chain?
As usual the answer is it depends.

API (and Neve) output stages were designed back in the day when outputs were expected to be able to drive +26dBu into a 600 ohm load. That is 400mW of power. API output transformers, like Neve ones, are step up transformers. They are typically 200:600 or even 150:600 so if you happen to load the output with 600 ohms this will be reflected back to the input as 150 or 200 ohms. This is almost certainly not a load your interface is designed to cope with (ditto for a 5532).

On the other hand, most if not all modern op amps are designed to be short circuit proof so they should not be damaged by this kind of load but what they will sound like is anyone's guess.

Bottom line, API or Neve output transformers are not the kind you want to be using in this apllication.

Cheers

Ian
 
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