Need advice for improving isolation in miking a string bass live on stage. Jazz mostly

[Mr. Moscode]

I can say that when you feed a 58 through the middle two strings below the bridge and then plug it in, that that's a fantastic placement.

Touching the strings? What is holding it in place?

 

[Rusan]

I wonder if this particular mic might be of any practical use?

And, perhaps something like some small, portable soundproofing panels with feet, placed out away from the sides of your bass to attenuate the direct-line piano/drums bleed. Maybe with a wood frame, a sheet of mass loaded vinyl, thick mineral wool, and covered with some attractive cloth.

 

[Mr. Moscode]

I wonder if this particular mic might be of any practical use?

And, perhaps something like some small, portable soundproofing panels with feet, placed out away from the sides of your bass to attenuate the direct-line piano/drums bleed. Maybe with a wood frame, a sheet of mass loaded vinyl, thick mineral wool, and covered with some attractive cloth.

A gobo would help. I'm trying to avoid carrying anything else to the gig. I appreciate the suggestion. I may be able to talk the sound man into storing them at the club.

The Nadine looks promising. One of the problems is reflected sound off the belly of the bass. I think I tried that with an inexpensive lipstick mic but I don't remember how it worked out, about 8 years ago. I would guess that making one would not be hard but a bit time consuming. A LD electret would simplify the design.

You folks have shown me some possibilities that I didn't know of. I love getting this education! Keep it coming. And I bet I'm not the only one benefiting from this inquiry. Viva la GDIY! Thank you.

NADINE MIC:

 

[k brown]

Uses the TSB/JLI 2555 electret capsule. JLI-2555BXZ3-GP - of 'Alice' mic fame.
http://recordinghacks.com/microphones/Ear-Trumpet-Labs/Nadine
The Tape Op review cautions it's use close to drums, however; pattern not terribly tight.
https://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/145/nadine-upright-bass-mic/
Heads-up, DIYers; this looks like something pretty easy to make. The 'grabber' is just a very large grommet.

 

[Peter Simonsen]

What happens if the drummer gets certain tones from his kit depending on the velocity of hitting the instrument?

What if the drummer refuses/is not skilled enough to play quieter?

What if the spill is more caused by the location of the drummer rather than the volume and it can't be changed?

While certainly a good option to explore. I don't agree this is the definitive answer to solve the problem.

Personally I really dislike bleed and it's not friend. For me it is an acquaintance that I need to tolerate and work with.

Well...In that case, these are your own choices that you have to accept and live with.

In the real world, if you want good results, you work together, and especially work and understand the physical framework.

The things you mention are in my view only "bad excuses". And these have time and time again proven to deliver the mentioned results/problems.

"What happens if the drummer gets certain tones from his kit depending on the velocity of hitting the instrument?"

Imho...The one person is NEVER more important than the tune/song, she/he just have to find way to get it without distroying everybody else.

(If the drummer is the major star of the show, and act like it...learn to live with it ..) He/She pays the bills.

"What if the drummer refuses/is not skilled enough to play quieter?"

Live with it and dont complain, or..replace him/her.

"What if the spill is more caused by the location of the drummer rather than the volume and it can't be changed?"

Never been in such a situation, and again the drummer (any musician) need to be able to play "the venue"/room. I would consider not to record that night, and or know the problems .. live with them, and get on.

"While certainly a good option to explore. I don't agree this is the definitive answer to solve the problem"

Fine with me. You are intitled not to agree all you want.

"Personally I really dislike bleed and it's not friend. For me it is an acquaintance that I need to tolerate and work with."

Again we don't have to agree. I love bleed...(not uncontrolled bleed caursed by all the above) but well 'n good sounding bleed from a good room with good pro musicians, that knows how to play, mix, blend etc...ohh bleed is the glue, the space, etc...

best /Peter

 

[Mr. Moscode]

Uses the TSB/JLI 2555 electret capsule. JLI-2555BXZ3-GP - of 'Alice' mic fame.
http://recordinghacks.com/microphones/Ear-Trumpet-Labs/Nadine
The Tape Op review cautions it's use close to drums, however; pattern not terribly tight.
https://tapeop.com/reviews/gear/145/nadine-upright-bass-mic/
Heads-up, DIYers; this looks like something pretty easy to make. The 'grabber' is just a very large grommet.

There we go. Now we're cookin' with gas. I'll be the guinea pig to test it. A Sililoqueen K67?

 

[soapy_goat]

I’ve been using Lalal.ai for removing acoustic guitar bleed from vocals of a singer playing acoustic guitar while singing, with remarkable results.

LALAL is a GAME-CHANGER! When mixing recordings from live shows always run vocal tracks (AKA FRONT-HEADS as I call 'em... as in drum over-heads at the front of the stage ) now I can eq and compress without turning up cymbals! Making 10 years of spit-covered SM58 sound good requires quite a massage sometimes and LALAL makes it possible for me. There are many "Stem Separation Type" algorithms that are tuned to separate vox, strings, guitar, winds, drums, bass, and piano... And they spit out files of the desired subject of separation and the chaff too.

 

[C12VR]

k67 type is not exactly the greatest at rejection. LDC is the wrong way to go if your goal is to maximize rejection (unless you can afford a true ck12). why not go for SDC with better off-axis response?

There we go. Now we're cookin' with gas. I'll be the guinea pig to test it. A Sililoqueen K67?

 

[Mr. Moscode]

LALAL is a GAME-CHANGER! When mixing recordings from live shows always run vocal tracks (AKA FRONT-HEADS as I call 'em... as in drum over-heads at the front of the stage ) now I can eq and compress without turning up cymbals! Making 10 years of spit-covered SM58 sound good requires quite a massage sometimes and LALAL makes it possible for me. There are many "Stem Separation Type" algorithms that are tuned to separate vox, strings, guitar, winds, drums, bass, and piano... And they spit out files of the desired subject of separation and the chaff too.

I'll have to try it. Brave new world for me. Any undesirable side effects?

 

[Mr. Moscode]

k67 type is not exactly the greatest at rejection. LDC is the wrong way to go if your goal is to minimize rejection (unless you can afford a true ck12). why not go for SDC with better off-axis response?

It looks like the capsule in Nadine is fairly large but I don't know that for sure.

 

[k brown]

It looks like the capsule in Nadine is fairly large but I don't know that for sure.

The Transound capsule in it is 26mm outside diameter; med-large.

 

[Mr. Moscode]

The Transound capsule in it is 26mm outside diameter; med-large.

cool. What capsule would you use for this? It seems an electret would simplify it.

 

[Electrobumps]

Again we don't have to agree. I love bleed...(not uncontrolled bleed caursed by all the above) but well 'n good sounding bleed from a good room with good pro musicians, that knows how to play, mix, blend etc...ohh bleed is the glue, the space, etc...

best /Peter

I understand you and agree with what you say.

The point I really wanted to make was that sometimes as much as we want to, we can't always fix the source or the room and have the best musicians to hand. I don't know any engineers who hang up their headphones and go home if they don't have all of these on a session.

Apologies to the OP for delarailing the thread. In reality without any of us being in the room and listening to what is going on this is all academic and subjective. Good luck, I hope you achieve the sonics you are looking for. You have plenty of ideas to try.

 

[soapy_goat]

I'll have to try it. Brave new world for me. Any undesirable side effects?

The only undesirable effects include having to pay for the service (15$ USD/90minutes minutes worth of audio available for splitting, so chop those vox into verses!) and you can sometimes pick out artifacts when soloed depending on how busy the offending signal was, only the ghost of a cymbal may appear during sibilance in the vocal, but their algorithm keeps getting better. My ears don't notice artifacts like that in a full mix, not as much as muffled vox and cymbal bleed. You can demo how things will turn out before committing to the process, run those bass files by now as a test!

 

[k brown]

cool. What capsule would you use for this? It seems an electret would simplify it.

First one I'd try is the one that @kingkorg has posted about https://groupdiy.com/threads/new-ish-electret-capsule.76460/- it's a 25mm electret that's about as bright as the one in the Nadine, but not as 'hard'-sounding. Far better construction.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255...tewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt&_randl_shipto=US
Also available on eBay, if you prefer. 25mm Condenser Microphone Cartridge Capsule Replacements Diaphragm Microph Ele 4894909998300 | eBay

 

[kingkorg]

I'm in the middle between piano and drums. The guest du jour is usually in front of me and only occasionally is there an open back amp used by guitarists.

I just bought a mic hood type vocal mic isolator that I'll try next week.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0BTQ215NG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1
View attachment 107639

It sure looks like that may improve the situation. The stage has rugs so that's cool. It helps absorb grand piano. Won't need the pop filter.
The most reflective surface is the front of the bass. I don't expect total isolation but if I can get 10 or 12 db attenuation that would help.


I thank you for the suggestion.

Carefully with these, in my experience they cause more trouble than any good. This could actually turn the mic more towards omni. It will most certainly change the sound of the mic significantly, and cause internal reflections despite the porous material.

https://www.thomannmusic.no/se_electronics_reflexion_filter.htm
These with some harder than foam material in the sandwich work nice for rear rejection control, much better than what they are advertised for - room reflections.

A geeky proposition:

https://groupdiy.com/threads/better...-capsules-hybrid-second-order-cardioid.82758/
Be aware that cymbals get reflected off the surface of your instrument as well.

Be aware of where exactly the nulls of the mic are, they are rarely exactly at 180°.

I don't think there's one solution but combination of several techniques. It would be also useful to pay attention to the frequency register of what you are trying to get rid of. If the low end is the issue you might want to use just pickup signal for say 200hz and below. I don't believe there's any useful information you'd get from a mic in that range anyways.

 

[Mr. Moscode]

Carefully with these, in my experience they cause more trouble than any good. This could actually turn the mic more towards omni. It will most certainly change the sound of the mic significantly, and cause internal reflections despite the porous material.

https://www.thomannmusic.no/se_electronics_reflexion_filter.htm
These with some harder than foam material in the sandwich work nice for rear rejection control, much better than what they are advertised for - room reflections.

A geeky proposition:

https://groupdiy.com/threads/better...-capsules-hybrid-second-order-cardioid.82758/
Be aware that cymbals get reflected off the surface of your instrument as well.

Be aware of where exactly the nulls of the mic are, they are rarely exactly at 180°.

I don't think there's one solution but combination of several techniques. It would be also useful to pay attention to the frequency register of what you are trying to get rid of. If the low end is the issue you might want to use just pickup signal for say 200hz and below. I don't believe there's any useful information you'd get from a mic in that range anyways.

I am very aware of reflections off the bass, sadly. Right now I tend to keep the bass back facing the drums so there is some shield.

As to the narrow null point on the fig8 mic - the drums are not a point source. they're about 3-4 feet in depth so it will be a bit of a crap shoot.

I'm thinking of putting a plastic shield around the foam filter to help keep highs from going thru. Right now I have a cardioid mdc and am looking into a cheap ribbon, which if it doesn't help, I can use it somewhere else. In the past I usually rolled off the highs in the mix. What I like is the "bass drum" effect of the bass, the punch and that's acoustic. I have a pickup track which I use to add some edge or shape to the note.

This is an empirical project. I don't expect full isolation, just some improvement. If this doesn't cut the mustard, butter the bread, pop the weasel . . . well, there I jolly well am, aren't I? Another thread?

Again Thank you for your help and experience. I really appreciate everyone's point of view. Something good will come out of it. When it does, and I am playing well, I'll post it.

 

[Tubetec]

Theres a company who make very small ribbon lavelier mics mainly for TV , I forget who they are now
It has a P12 powered preamp , be interesting to try it out on a double bass .

In studio the best Double bass sound we ever got used a U87 in figure 8 on the body and a Bruel&Kjaer omni up near the fret board , either mic on their own sounded unbalanced until you blended them , then you got the big low end with all the subtleties of what the fret fingers were doing added in ,

 

[Mr. Moscode]

Theres a company who make very small ribbon lavelier mics mainly for TV , I forget who they are now
It has a P12 powered preamp , be interesting to try it out on a double bass .

In studio the best Double bass sound we ever got used a U87 in figure 8 on the body and a Bruel&Kjaer omni up near the fret board , either mic on their own sounded unbalanced until you blended them , then you got the big low end with all the subtleties of what the fret fingers were doing added in ,

Great. All that miking, that's like playing in my underwear in Macy's window on 34th st.

I can't say I'm a fan of fingerboard noise. I like the sound of 1964 Ron Carter. Big bottom and clear in tune overtones and nice growl on the E string. That's the sound I'm always working on. I got to study with Ron in the summer of 2021 via Zoom where he showed me how to get that sound. Perpetual practice and study.

If I bought all these different mics I'd have to sell the bass!

And thanks for adding to the list. Very much appreciated.

 

[Mr. Moscode]

First one I'd try is the one that @kingkorg has posted about https://groupdiy.com/threads/new-ish-electret-capsule.76460/- it's a 25mm electret that's about as bright as the one in the Nadine, but not as 'hard'-sounding. Far better construction.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/2255...tewayAdapt=glo2usa4itemAdapt&_randl_shipto=US
Also available on eBay, if you prefer. 25mm Condenser Microphone Cartridge Capsule Replacements Diaphragm Microph Ele 4894909998300 | eBay

These are electret? $4? or $9 on ebay. If this is as hip as you say it is how could I go wrong?