Budget distortion analyzer/signal generator

[arnyk]

We can probably count the number of manufacturers of high power audio amplifiers on our hands and toes, which means it's a tiny specialist market, for which no T&M vendor has time or resources to service

There seems to be a vast underestimation of the number of amplifier manufacturers whose gear's power output necessitates the use of external dummy loads.  Virtually every receiver, PA system, and basic power amp puts out more than 25 wpc.  While the AP S1 provides input termination resistors, they are for 100k/600/150 Ohm inputs, it does not provide them t power amp impedance levels such as 2, 4, 8, and 16 ohms, which are typical of power amps.

Another problem with this approach is that the number of distortion analysis sets sold far more closely tracks the number of dealers worldwide, rather than the number of nationally known manufacturers in the US.  Obviously, there are dozens to 100's and perhaps even thousands of dealers (example: Yamaha, Denon, Crown, QSC)  for every well known US manufacturer of audio amplifiers.  Many dealers themselves have more than one distortion analysis set.

It is well known that the consumer and pro audio manufacturing business is now largely off-shore. A single US brand such as Behringer often uses a number of of contract manufacturing facilities whose names are not well known in the US. Each of these locations is likely to have distortion measuring gear for QC, etc.

Therefore the criteria suggested for estimating the size of the market for distortion measuring equipment wildly understates the actual market. 

Simple Google searching shows that there are numerous US test equipment companies that are soliciting purchasers of audio distortion measuring equipment.

 

[gyraf]

It might be me that is a bit slow today - but why would a hifi dealer care to own a distortion set? If anything goes wrong in modern-day-amplifiers, you either discard the whole chassis or change the chip. There's no time, money or necessity left for stuff like bias trimming...

Jakob E.

 

[JohnRoberts]

There seems to be a vast underestimation of the number of amplifier manufacturers whose gear's power output necessitates the use of external dummy loads.  Virtually every receiver, PA system, and basic power amp puts out more than 25 wpc.  While the AP S1 provides input termination resistors, they are for 100k/600/150 Ohm inputs, it does not provide them t power amp impedance levels such as 2, 4, 8, and 16 ohms, which are typical of power amps.

Another problem with this approach is that the number of distortion analysis sets sold far more closely tracks the number of dealers worldwide, rather than the number of nationally known manufacturers in the US.  Obviously, there are dozens to 100's and perhaps even thousands of dealers (example: Yamaha, Denon, Crown, QSC)  for every well known US manufacturer of audio amplifiers.  Many dealers themselves have more than one distortion analysis set.

It is well known that the consumer and pro audio manufacturing business is now largely off-shore. A single US brand such as Behringer often uses a number of of contract manufacturing facilities whose names are not well known in the US. Each of these locations is likely to have distortion measuring gear for QC, etc.

Uli will be surprised to learn he is a US brand...and AFAIK he stopped using contract manufacturers after building his own factory in China years ago.

Therefore the criteria suggested for estimating the size of the market for distortion measuring equipment wildly understates the actual market. 

If there was a huge mismatch between demand and capacity existing test equipment makers would be expanding... I suspect the profit margin is being squeezed out of that mature business too...

JR

Simple Google searching shows that there are numerous US test equipment companies that are soliciting purchasers of audio distortion measuring equipment.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

  Obviously, there are dozens to 100's and perhaps even thousands of dealers (example: Yamaha, Denon, Crown, QSC)  for every well known US manufacturer of audio amplifiers.  Many dealers themselves have more than one distortion analysis set.

Thank you! I just had to laugh, it made my day.
That's the problem with pontificating; you get so carried away, sooner or later it shows your complete disregard for facts.
Having been the French distributor for AP, then NTI, I know the customer base: manufacturers, free-lance designers, maintenance engineers, broadcast and magazines. One unit went to a national dealer, at headquarters, where it was used for assessing products. We opened champagne whenever we sold more than 20 units in a year.

 

[arnyk]

Quote from: arnyk on October 05, 2016, 04:15:21 PM
"You will find no such words in  my post"

  From your post « Reply #52 on: October 05, 2016, 04:15:21 PM »
"But any idiot knows that it does, so what is your point?"

What is the connection between these two apparently disconnected comments?  I see none.

As I wrote, I'm not interested in continuing this sterile joust,

For someone who is so disinterested, you don't seem to be able to simply let it go.

but I cannot let pass the fact that you do not even have the honesty to assume your own words.

Wrong. Both sets of words are obviously mine so I do take responsibility for them, but the connection between them is not the least bit clear.  May I suggest that you study the art of expository writing in English so that you will be able to make such connections clear when they exist?

 

[arnyk]

Thank you! I just had to laugh, it made my day.

Since your days seem to full of pontification, I can see how that might be so.

That's the problem with pontificating; you get so carried away, sooner or later it shows your complete disregard for facts.
Having been the French distributor for AP, then NTI, I know the customer base: manufacturers, free-lance designers, maintenance engineers, broadcast and magazines. One unit went to a national dealer, at headquarters, where it was used for assessing products. We opened champagne whenever we sold more than 20 units in a year.

Another great example of irrelevant pontification!

To many Americans, France,being the home of post-modernist criticism of Science would be far from an ideal market for audio test equipment.  Therefore, there is no necessary connection between the American and French market for audio test equipment, and vastly differing experiences in those two markets are to expected.

Having minted more than a few bucks selling audio gear in my earlier days, I know that some people can sell, and some can't. 

One distributor's experiences in one of the multitude of European states does not define the world wide market or the market in other countries.

I don't see a vast future growth market for fixed purpose audio test gear for a number of reasons, but none of them being related to your false claim that only manufacturers buy them.

 

[abbey road d enfer]

What is the connection between these two apparently disconnected comments?  I see none.

It is obvious; in « Reply #52 on: October 05, 2016, 04:15:21 PM », you wrote; "But any idiot knows that it does, so what is your point?".
Then, in « Reply #56 on: October 05, 2016, 09:26:46 PM », you wrote: "You will find no such words in  my post." Anyone who can read can verify that.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Perhaps we can bring this discussion back to test equipment and lose the accusatory language and personal characterizations.

Attacking France marks a new low for this sub forum. 

If you want a bar fight post in the "brewery" , but ad hominem is not tolerated there either.

JR 

 

[abbey road d enfer]

To many Americans, France,being the home of post-modernist criticism of Science would be far from an ideal market for audio test equipment. 

Is that the result of your "study the art of expository writing in English" ? Uttering unfounded and biased generalizations ? What would you think if I wrote the USA are home of crypto-theocratic creationism? and conclude it would be far from an ideal market for genetic research? Silly, that's right
The use of four-syllable gibberish does not make your words more credible.
As for: "For someone who is so disinterested, you don't seem to be able to simply let it go." I'm a moderator, and as such it is my duty to maintain the friendly nature of this group, which does not mean that we don't have the right to be strong-opinionated, but the kind of pedantic superiority that oozes from most of your posts does not make things easy.
I guess we don't deserve your highness...please make your enlightenments available to a group smarter than ours.

 

[Andy Peters]

It might be me that is a bit slow today - but why would a hifi dealer care to own a distortion set? If anything goes wrong in modern-day-amplifiers, you either discard the whole chassis or change the chip. There's no time, money or necessity left for stuff like bias trimming...

Does any HiFi dealer have repair capabilities, or do they just send the kit back to the manufacturer for repair?

 

[Andy Peters]

Back to topic: Anyone tried the Red Pitaya open-source-software measurement and control tool?

http://redpitaya.com/

I looked at getting one when it was first announced, simply because it's pretty cool. A slightly newer version, available "Oct 2016": http://store.redpitaya.com/red-pitaya-board.html

And the Visual Programming option (http://store.redpitaya.com/visual-programming.html) looks like Scratch!

 

[JohnRoberts]

Does any HiFi dealer have repair capabilities, or do they just send the kit back to the manufacturer for repair?

Back in the 80s I have seen high end hifi dealers use test equipment to promote high end gear.. back in those days they used the huge Sound Technology analyzers.

JR

 

[benb]

AFAIK there is no such thing as a commercial measurement set that has built in load resistors that are suitable for use with modern power amps that run into the 100 and 1,000's of watts. I know of one that is a peripheral for the AP measurement systems but is not a stand alone measurement device.

Is this the peripheral you're thinking of, the "Active Loadbox?" This site also shows a standalone system, the "Power Cube:"
http://www.audiograph.se/

Woops, I think this gets way off topic from the subject of the thread, which starts with "Budget."

 

[arnyk]

Does any HiFi dealer have repair capabilities, or do they just send the kit back to the manufacturer for repair?

Since you're making the situation difficult by only dealing in absolute generalities such as "Does any  hifi dealer have repair capabilities?" the question can't be answered because in fact whether an audio dealer has repair facilities depends on the nature of the dealer's business situation.

For example, I see no allowance for the fact that not all audio power amplifier dealers are HiFi dealers.  A sizable segment are so-called Pro Audio dealers who are more likely to have their own on-site repair facilities. Another sizable proportion are in the custom installation business and again are more likely to have more extensive technical facilities and staff to exploit them.

In contrast many audio stores that sell home audio in conjunction with other home appliances are more likely to simply send  equipment returned by consumers back to the manufacturer without examining it further at their stores.

Good professional and business practice is to verify that equipment that is returned and then resold to other customers have technical performance that is comparable to that of new gear. It is not sold "as is" but is sold "open box". A device such as a AP Audio analyzer is ideal for this purpose.

I've been involved with a few large sound system installation projects in recent years and found that the primary contractor had AP or equivalent technical gear back at the shop, but were  more likely to use laptops with professional audio interfaces and software -based analysis in the field. 

It is all about the right tool for the job at hand.

 

[Andy Peters]

Since you're making the situation difficult by only dealing in absolute generalities such as "Does any  hifi dealer have repair capabilities?" the question can't be answered because in fact whether an audio dealer has repair facilities depends on the nature of the dealer's business situation.

Arny, do us a favor and tell us who you are and why you're an expert.

Thank you.

 

[ricardo]

Abbey, please do us a favour and strike arnyk off the list.

• I can't see any useful input in his posts.
• and he appears to start each of his posts with a personal attack on someone.

Everyone, please don't answer trolls.  It seriously reduces the S/N

 

[arnyk]

Is this the peripheral you're thinking of, the "Active Loadbox?" This site also shows a standalone system, the "Power Cube:"
http://www.audiograph.se/

Woops, I think this gets way off topic from the subject of the thread, which starts with "Budget."

Right, and the active loads are clearly premium priced gear.

Please "Look at what I do..." and observe that the picture of my passive dummy load that I recently posted on this thread was based on 8 Dale 250 watt Non-Inductive power resistors.

 

[arnyk]

Arny, do us a favor and tell us who you are and why you're an expert.

Thank you.

It might be far more effective if you google my name: Arny Krueger  and find out for yourself.

 

[dirtyhanfri]

Edited: Unnecessary offtopic.

 

[gyraf]

OK guys - time to remind you all about our no. one rule here: No Personal Attacks. Keep this forum clear of pissing contests.

You are all welcome to continue this thread if you stick to original topic - any off-topic and even partly off-topic posts will stand a real chance of being deleted from this point and forwards.

If you feel somebody did you wrong, feel free to post about it in "the Brewery" - that's what it's there for.

Jakob E.
-mod-