Bypassing signal path coupling caps

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AusTex64

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 3, 2013
Messages
525
I'm not sure what to think about bypassing signal path coupling caps. Seems there are people who swear by them, and other who swear AT them. I've read some of Marsh's papers from the RelCap site about why he thinks it's a good idea, and I note Manley uses MultiCaps as the final coupling cap on a lot of their gear. I'm thinking they probably wouldn't be spending that kind of money for that part if they couldn't hear a difference. And they have a lot more time and better facilities to do that kind of critical listening than I. Curious what you guys think. Thanks!
 
I think it s a waste of time and money. There is a whole section on coupling capacitors in Doug Self's current book which is very enlightening.

Cheers

Ian
 
It depends.  I have heard it make a difference in side to side tests, compared before and after, multiple channels of each.  I would guess/suggest as an electrolytic ages and ESR rises, a film bypass would treat higher frequencies better. 
 
This is a very old topic and keep in mind that old articles are talking about old caps.

I haven't read Self's thought's on the subject but probably more useful than the arm wavers.

JR
 
> Manley uses MultiCaps ...wouldn't be spending that kind of money for that part if they couldn't hear a difference.

Manley sounds good; but it also LOOKS good inside.

Parts selection is not done totally blindfolded, or by guru-eye. Beauty really is in the eye of the guy who gives you money.
 
JohnRoberts said:
This is a very old topic and keep in mind that old articles are talking about old caps.

I personally haven't been able to hear any differences when using modern high quality electrolytics.

I find that this is more of a topic that get's thrashed around Hi-Fi forums, where they talk all day long about the how an NE5534 "makes the low mids sound muddy" whilst neglecting many of the larger issues that actually do effect the sound.
 
ruffrecords said:
I think it s a waste of time and money. There is a whole section on coupling capacitors in Doug Self's current book which is very enlightening.

Cheers

Ian

I've been trying to find a reasonably priced copy of this for more than a year now. I just can't see spending $80+ on a soft cover... :(
 
electric_diaries said:
I find that this is more of a topic that get's thrashed around Hi-Fi forums, where they talk all day long about the how an NE5534 "makes the low mids sound muddy" whilst neglecting many of the larger issues that actually do effect the sound.


One of the best "I don't like NE553x" comments I have seen was on DIY Audio..... the poster said along the lines of "I would not insult my ears by allowing them to listen to anything that had passed through a NE5532"........ Hmmmm......  the poster's choice of music and film soundtracks must be very short indeed......
 
Gareth Connor said:
electric_diaries said:
I find that this is more of a topic that get's thrashed around Hi-Fi forums, where they talk all day long about the how an NE5534 "makes the low mids sound muddy" whilst neglecting many of the larger issues that actually do effect the sound.


One of the best "I don't like NE553x" comments I have seen was on DIY Audio..... the poster said along the lines of "I would not insult my ears by allowing them to listen to anything that had passed through a NE5532"........ Hmmmm......  the poster's choice of music and film soundtracks must be very short indeed......

Reminds me of the audio-phools who would complain about the sound degradation from passing through switch contacts...  8)

JR
 
hymentoptera said:
I've been trying to find a reasonably priced copy of this for more than a year now. I just can't see spending $80+ on a soft cover... :(

Some of the capacitor distortion pages are available as samples pages in the google book here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=u249BAAAQBAJ&pg=PA65&lpg=PA65&dq=self+coupling+capacitor+distortion&source=bl&ots=zMMQuHIYuM&sig=jyrN0hTSAgm7dPtqogmAtzW4QC0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAmoVChMIjfiku5DtxgIVFpuICh0brAvt#v=onepage&q=self%20coupling%20capacitor%20distortion&f=false (Page 65 if that doesn't put you there)

That section was actually how I found out about the Self book a while back while doing a google search.  It can be a useful book to have around as a general reference for all sorts of audio type things.  I just pulled my copy out to check a short section he has about a condenser mic head amp circuit as I was looking into condenser circuits beyond the typical Shcoeps  clone that everyone uses.

 
mattamatta said:
hymentoptera said:
I've been trying to find a reasonably priced copy of this for more than a year now. I just can't see spending $80+ on a soft cover... :(

Some of the capacitor distortion pages are available as samples pages in the google book here:

Yes, thank you. That's how I found out that I really want a hard copy. The samples online really are effective marketing!
 
Gareth Connor said:
electric_diaries said:
I find that this is more of a topic that get's thrashed around Hi-Fi forums, where they talk all day long about the how an NE5534 "makes the low mids sound muddy" whilst neglecting many of the larger issues that actually do effect the sound.


One of the best "I don't like NE553x" comments I have seen was on DIY Audio..... the poster said along the lines of "I would not insult my ears by allowing them to listen to anything that had passed through a NE5532"........ Hmmmm......  the poster's choice of music and film soundtracks must be very short indeed......

Most of the new Rupert Neve Portico stuff uses NE5534's but operated Class A, with Neve designed transformers in and out. I have a pair of the mic pre's, compressors and EQ's and they all sound great.
 
AusTex64 said:
Most of the new Rupert Neve Portico stuff uses NE5534's but operated Class A, with Neve designed transformers in and out. I have a pair of the mic pre's, compressors and EQ's and they all sound great.

Forcing an IC output stage to operate class A is of questionable merit. This dubious technique has been around long enough that if it had merit, there would be dedicated ICs taking advantage of it by now.

Of course it gives people license to use 553x and deflect phoolish criticism. Good marketing even though most criticism of 553x is poorly founded.

Ignore the (marketing) man behind the curtain.

JR
 
JohnRoberts said:
Forcing an IC output stage to operate class A is of questionable merit. This dubious technique has been around long enough that if it had merit, there would be dedicated ICs taking advantage of it by now.

Let's not fool ourselves about the significance of the audio marketplace, it doesn't have much and never did. It'd have to be of merit in places other than audio, which as we all know is a tiny tiny market.  Slice tinier to the level at which people get nuanced about sound, and that tells you how much interest there is in manufacturing a dedicated class A IC (virtually none).  It does not in any way imply anything about sonic validity.  There are multiple 'audio-fool' veers in this thread which many mastering guys with very scientific approaches wholeheartedly believe in, it's funny how these things are taken virtually as fact in a rarified pro audio arena yet are considered signs of idiocy when it's from the end user side.  You can hear many small differences in parts selection when you are in an environment of high enough resolution.  Whether the extremely high cost is enough to decide it's not worth worrying about is a totally different question, and many questions around money turn into social class observations about elitism rather than being about a simple sandboxed question: is there an environment in which a difference can be heard or observed?  If there's not a lot of demand (there isn't), then there's a lack of available research, naturally.  99.9% at the end of the funnel do not have a playback system of any meaningful resolution with which to detect anything, then add tin ears, age, bad taste, and preconceived notions......  YMMV..... 

In the end use what you like the sound of: terrifying!  How would we know?  Who has time to try tons of tiny variables?  Virtually no one.  We are generally happy when something makes non-offensive sound on a continuous trouble free basis. Reliability is enough for most, sonic preference is esoteric and tough to define.  We see this most clearly in all the clone audio equipment around here, using totally non-original audio transformers.  In many cases those original transformers define the sound of the 'classic' piece, and you've just built something different when you don't have them.  Yet, this gets ignored in favor of "Yay!  I built a Pultec/StaLevel/Fairchild!" because otherwise the parade is always sharted on. 

My point about aging electrolytics just went right over everyone's heads, and it'd be pure hubris to suggest we won't end up with some audio equipment that still works but we realize has hit it's first, second, or third decade in use.  Bypass caps may well make a clear difference then.    I have heard them improve aging audio equipment with 10-15 year old parts, when added, and not a small difference either.  You pay more, you hopefully get more thoughtfulness and detail in what you receive.  If you choose to take the crass approach that anyone selling anything is just out to get your money and pull one over on you, you might be a lost cause, and couldn't possibly add anything useful to the debate. 
 
I try not to argue about what other people hear, I have had questions with myself about what I hear,

It is easy to imagine how replacing a 30+ YO electrolytic caps could make an audible difference.

JR
 
I sneer at the (very common) cork sniffing around here regarding unity gain IC's and discrete op amps.  I haven't gone sniffing in that direction, I don't know other than I generally ain't got time for that. Lots of people think they have clear preferences.  Little to none of the same around cap practices.  Is this because we have sellers of esoteric discrete op amp variations in our midst, and no cap sellers?  I can't say.  We have the debate around resistor types coming from a long history of opinions about instrument amps.  If all these parts can sound different from another having, on the surface, the same basic values and properties, why wouldn't some parallel combinations show different properties? 
 
I was not accurate regarding how Rupert Neve uses NE5534's in the Portico range:

<The circuitry is built almost entirely using conventional-sized components, with the old familiar NE5534 op-amps doing the bulk of the work, supplemented with separate transistors in appropriate places. Rupert Neve's designs traditionally employed single-sided class-A topologies, and it is hard to square that approach with these Portico circuit boards covered in op-amps. The secret missing ingredient is that he uses a circuit technique with the 5534 op-amps which offsets the DC point of their output stages, so that for signals below about 0dBu they are effectively running in a single-sided class-A mode. This removes crossover distortion artifacts completely and is a significant contributor to the sound of this preamp.>

Also read some info indicating Rupert Neve had a hand in the design of NE5534. True?
 

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