Collins 6Q-1
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Would you please explain how it sounds, if honeymoon feeling isn't too intense and you had time to spend together 
Where are you using it, can you also get pretty clean sound, is it easy to overdrive it and what kind of overdrive is it, can you compare to other known tube preamp? Does it have big, wide and detailed sound compared to solid state preamps? I know this are difficult questions, please try to describe as good as you can. Maybe emrr will chime in and explain if transformers also make part of "bottle neck". When using trafos that take more signal compared to originals i'm always wondering if this makes big difference, beside different core, etc.
Thanks for any reply!
Where are you using it, can you also get pretty clean sound, is it easy to overdrive it and what kind of overdrive is it, can you compare to other known tube preamp? Does it have big, wide and detailed sound compared to solid state preamps? I know this are difficult questions, please try to describe as good as you can. Maybe emrr will chime in and explain if transformers also make part of "bottle neck". When using trafos that take more signal compared to originals i'm always wondering if this makes big difference, beside different core, etc. Thanks for any reply!
Thanks for your interest.
I'm a passionate hobbyist and a newbie tech idiot with a fulltime dayjob and a familly,
doing gigs as a musician, mostly on weekends. Just to let you know that my "studio" work is
very limited and the whole DIY thing is even more limited.
To be honest I haven't done any serious recordings with the 6Q's since I racked them.
Only tested them with my voice using a Beyer M88 and a vintage U87, and running
program material through them using my DIY line to mic pads. The sweeps also went trough those pads.
http://www.uneeda-audio.com/pads/
My main purpose with these was to have some character pres with good sounding tube distortion.
You can get clean sound out of these too, and to me they sound great clean, but my lack of time with them
so far makes it hard for me to compare them to anything or describe the clean sound.
They distort pretty easy, but it comes "sneakin in", blending with the clean sound.
First it's hard to notice, you hear it becomes harmonically richer, then it goes to a more notable distortion.
The nice thing is that the curve from clean to obvious distortion is long, and the distortion is beautiful (to me).
It's full, rich and not harsh like more modern topologies.
It's like a Texas Chili that has cooked for many hours to get that balanced full hot taste,
insted of a hastly made beef stew drenched with Tabasco Sauce just before serving... ;D
I mixed an album last week patching them in on kick and snare to get some bite (with line to mic pads)
and it sounded cool to me. I actually wanted a little more distortion but my AD started to clip,
and I don't have attenuators (yet...).
I can try to post sound samples if you like, the chain also contains API and 1176 adding their footprint.
My only experience with other tube pre's, is from owning two channels of Electrodyne 201-A,
if I' m correct those are more or less rebranded Langevin 5116b, and the German V series (72/76).
I really like the sound of those, they sound "big" to me. But when you push them into distortion
it' s so abrupt and they become too harsh for my taste.
Doug (emrr) who inspired me about these is the expert and most certain have better answers.
Best regards
Magnus
I'm a passionate hobbyist and a newbie tech idiot with a fulltime dayjob and a familly,
doing gigs as a musician, mostly on weekends. Just to let you know that my "studio" work is
very limited and the whole DIY thing is even more limited.
To be honest I haven't done any serious recordings with the 6Q's since I racked them.
Only tested them with my voice using a Beyer M88 and a vintage U87, and running
program material through them using my DIY line to mic pads. The sweeps also went trough those pads.
http://www.uneeda-audio.com/pads/
My main purpose with these was to have some character pres with good sounding tube distortion.
You can get clean sound out of these too, and to me they sound great clean, but my lack of time with them
so far makes it hard for me to compare them to anything or describe the clean sound.
They distort pretty easy, but it comes "sneakin in", blending with the clean sound.
First it's hard to notice, you hear it becomes harmonically richer, then it goes to a more notable distortion.
The nice thing is that the curve from clean to obvious distortion is long, and the distortion is beautiful (to me).
It's full, rich and not harsh like more modern topologies.
It's like a Texas Chili that has cooked for many hours to get that balanced full hot taste,
insted of a hastly made beef stew drenched with Tabasco Sauce just before serving... ;D
I mixed an album last week patching them in on kick and snare to get some bite (with line to mic pads)
and it sounded cool to me. I actually wanted a little more distortion but my AD started to clip,
and I don't have attenuators (yet...).
I can try to post sound samples if you like, the chain also contains API and 1176 adding their footprint.
My only experience with other tube pre's, is from owning two channels of Electrodyne 201-A,
if I' m correct those are more or less rebranded Langevin 5116b, and the German V series (72/76).
I really like the sound of those, they sound "big" to me. But when you push them into distortion
it' s so abrupt and they become too harsh for my taste.
Doug (emrr) who inspired me about these is the expert and most certain have better answers.
Best regards
Magnus
Hey, thanks for detailed explanation, it is nice from you. It matches what Doug said in several old threads. I'm not sure what pads you are talking about. Seems like you don't have interstage pots (judging by your description they might be grounded wrongly) if you were clipping converters, are you also missing mic u pads (500R series and 169R shunt) and only used line-mic pads? I'm asking because Doug's markings on schematic and 212-A manual show input transformer with ~1:18 ratio, which are expensive to get and make little sense in other preamps. If preamp retains this sound with 10-15dB mic pads i will simply use 1:10 inputs which are cheaper and higher quality. Btw, i don't do any production beside helping with my gear from time to time, also stopped doing PA. I don't find it strange; life changes and addiction remains. Fortunately "only" this one
So let's see what you say about pads and wait a little until you have more experiences with preamps. Thanks for the samples, i would be happy to hear them when you have more material recorded. IIRC those Langevin/Electrodyne are push pull, V series is parafeed. I don't have experiences with push-pull preamps but your description of V series matches my experiences. Nice big sound with abrupt distortion. R47 sounds similar, although a bit more aggressive than V72. It is so because of NFB in both preamps. I tried R47 without global NFB, it sounds horrible, couldn't find any use for this type of distortion.
Cheers,
Mischa
So let's see what you say about pads and wait a little until you have more experiences with preamps. Thanks for the samples, i would be happy to hear them when you have more material recorded. IIRC those Langevin/Electrodyne are push pull, V series is parafeed. I don't have experiences with push-pull preamps but your description of V series matches my experiences. Nice big sound with abrupt distortion. R47 sounds similar, although a bit more aggressive than V72. It is so because of NFB in both preamps. I tried R47 without global NFB, it sounds horrible, couldn't find any use for this type of distortion.
Cheers,
Mischa
Just a clarification.
I use external pads made from the info from the Uneeda-Audio link above when sending line level
to the pres. When racking them I also made a switchable pad in the rack (500R//169R).
The sweeps with pad on/off is this switchable pad (and of course the external line to mic pads,
since the sweeps are at line level)
I also implemented an interstage pot but I felt it sounded grittier and better (kick,snare) the more
I opend the pot, insted of blasting the first stage and turn the pot down.
This was for an obvious distortion effect. Thats why the AD clipped.
I would never change out the transformers, those are the biggest reason I bought originals insted of
building it from scratch with new parts.
The Edyne/Langevin are indeed push-pull.
I'll post some samples in the future.
Best
//M
I use external pads made from the info from the Uneeda-Audio link above when sending line level
to the pres. When racking them I also made a switchable pad in the rack (500R//169R).
The sweeps with pad on/off is this switchable pad (and of course the external line to mic pads,
since the sweeps are at line level)
I also implemented an interstage pot but I felt it sounded grittier and better (kick,snare) the more
I opend the pot, insted of blasting the first stage and turn the pot down.
This was for an obvious distortion effect. Thats why the AD clipped.
I would never change out the transformers, those are the biggest reason I bought originals insted of
building it from scratch with new parts.
The Edyne/Langevin are indeed push-pull.
I'll post some samples in the future.
Best
//M
Maybe this works....
I've uploaded some samples in this link:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wb1rpencgsglan9/4TGfMRzHrJ
This is a drum intro with one sample of the full kit how it turned out at final mixing stage.
I added a ITB limiter to push up the volume since my mixes usually end up at -6dB.
Two samples of what I call Front of Kick, raw and processed.
Mic: Neumann M147 one and a half foot out from a vintage Ludwig with intact front skin (the way I like it ).
Two samples from Snare, raw and processed.
Mic: Beyer M201 on a Ludwig Supraphonic
All recorded trough a vintage API desk. The processed kick and snare are both patched trough a 1176 before the 6Q.
If I remember correctly the kick has some Pultec style low freq boost/cut. The snare only some HP filter.
In the "full kit sample" a bit of a D12 is added on the kick and a bit of a snare rattles mic. Both also trough Collins 6Q.
And of course lots of room mics. Two vintage Pearl mics in Blumlein squashed trough a pair of 525.
No tom mics or overhead mics made it to the final mix 8)
Maybe this is pointless but this is what I have at the moment.
Kind regards
Magnus
I've uploaded some samples in this link:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/wb1rpencgsglan9/4TGfMRzHrJ
This is a drum intro with one sample of the full kit how it turned out at final mixing stage.
I added a ITB limiter to push up the volume since my mixes usually end up at -6dB.
Two samples of what I call Front of Kick, raw and processed.
Mic: Neumann M147 one and a half foot out from a vintage Ludwig with intact front skin (the way I like it
).Two samples from Snare, raw and processed.
Mic: Beyer M201 on a Ludwig Supraphonic
All recorded trough a vintage API desk. The processed kick and snare are both patched trough a 1176 before the 6Q.
If I remember correctly the kick has some Pultec style low freq boost/cut. The snare only some HP filter.
In the "full kit sample" a bit of a D12 is added on the kick and a bit of a snare rattles mic. Both also trough Collins 6Q.
And of course lots of room mics. Two vintage Pearl mics in Blumlein squashed trough a pair of 525.
No tom mics or overhead mics made it to the final mix 8)
Maybe this is pointless but this is what I have at the moment.
Kind regards
Magnus
Dr Gris said:
Thanks for samples and replies, i appreciate that. It certainly sounds very nice from what i can hear. I find it interesting that you preferred the sound with interstage pots wide open, you must be using switchable pad most of times, aren't you? Do you think -10dB pad would be more appropriate if you wanted color? I'm asking because it is pretty expensive to get good 1:18 input transformers here in EU, 1:10 is much more common and mostly higher quality. 8dB difference at the input probably wouldn't make preamp sound so different if you used ~20dB pad, i could still adjust mine for lower attenuation. I found comments from guy here who built it years ago with Thordarson transformers, his comments seem to agree with my assumptions.
Of course i would like to have original transformers or even preamps, but this costs way too much for me here in EU. Beside this no serious preamp i built let me down. They all sound good and close to descriptions even if not all trafos are original. Btw, did you have to pay custom and how much was shipping? From time to time i find this preamps that don't cost that much if i take in account original transformers.
emrr said:
I will ask Cinemag if the have something with 50k secondary for this things that is not too expensive. There is CMQEE-3440, i guess expensive because it says vintage and also phono
Do you have any recommendation for old trafos at this ratios? Everything on eBay starts at ~70$ and there is also shipping, VAT, custom, etc. I will start checking which old models are available and pay what it takes as it is a channel or two only. Output is not a problem as i have some home with this ratio.Thanks for confirmations and all this information you gave to us.
Seamus
Member
Hey all,
I thought that I would chime in with my experience with these, for those who are curious.
I have 4 channels of the 6Q.
Two with original Thordarson iron and two with Thordarson outputs and UTC A10 inputs.
Both types exhibit the same distortion behavior.
The Thord iron sounds quite a bit bigger that the UTC, while the UTC sounds more focused.
They all have a -20 pad and interstage volume control.
I will change the mic before I use the pad.
ie, if there is more distortion than I want, I'll change to a lower output mic.
If I do use the pad and I need more output to "tape", I'll run it though a limiter or something with some quiet make up gain.
So, yeah they are a little fiddly and they require a little more thought to use, but it is so very worth the effort!
Enjoy,
Seamus
I thought that I would chime in with my experience with these, for those who are curious.
I have 4 channels of the 6Q.
Two with original Thordarson iron and two with Thordarson outputs and UTC A10 inputs.
Both types exhibit the same distortion behavior.
The Thord iron sounds quite a bit bigger that the UTC, while the UTC sounds more focused.
They all have a -20 pad and interstage volume control.
I will change the mic before I use the pad.
ie, if there is more distortion than I want, I'll change to a lower output mic.
If I do use the pad and I need more output to "tape", I'll run it though a limiter or something with some quiet make up gain.
So, yeah they are a little fiddly and they require a little more thought to use, but it is so very worth the effort!
Enjoy,
Seamus
I'll add that this general observation on sonic differences will hold true on other tube amps of that era. I have BA2 clone I built with original inputs and UTC A series outputs - same thing in comparison to original iron.
What may not be apparent for those who will immediately think "I want all my stuff to sound BIG! - as BIG as possible!". Don't forget context here. That softer bigger sound works great if you are doing something like early 60s country or anything with a crooner voice and the instrumentation is well placed and sparse and more in the background. With most modern arrangements with the in your face instruments of most rock and pop + added compression that softer big sound tends to get lost. My BA2s have a lot of cut - that focused sound Seamus referred to, and I will often use that for the rock and pop stuff or anything with dense backing tracks. IMO similar to the 1176 using the zippy and smaller sounding (on its own) UTC ouncer inputs. A long time favorite for getting the vocal or lead instrument out front in dense pop tracks.
Seamus
Member
Absolutely!
Perfect example:
If I'm doing something with a condenser through the original iron and it's too hot, I'll switch to a ribbon.
Then, if the ribbon ends up being too wooly through the original iron, I'll switch to the UTC input.
Perfecto!
Perfect example:
If I'm doing something with a condenser through the original iron and it's too hot, I'll switch to a ribbon.
Then, if the ribbon ends up being too wooly through the original iron, I'll switch to the UTC input.
Perfecto!
Interesting observations regarding production and big vs focused. I just spent whole weekend trying different new OTs (50Ni:50Fe) in no-fb triode preamp. It seems like bigger core OTs give this big sound. I'm sure i hear this and heard it before, it is not because they look big I can't measure why this differences, it might be so because smaller core gives higher harmonics, or maybe simply more THD.
I can't measure why this differences, it might be so because smaller core gives higher harmonics, or maybe simply more THD.
Seamus
Member
emrr said:
Yeah?
I didn't remember (or know) about the UTC.
Was the xformer manufacturer somewhat chronological, or was it random (depending who had stock)?
Happy 4th, Doug.
Seamus
Matt C
Well-known member
I'm getting close to completing the two channel 6Q1-type unit I'm building from scratch and figured I'd post some pictures and solicit advice (and if you think this is better off in a different thread, let me know)
Two channels and the PSU in a 2RU case, with a sort of atypical layout (PSU in the middle, channels are mirror images of each other). so far i've only put one channel in, just to see how things are working.
At the moment it's passing audio just fine. a bit of noise but nothing overwhelming. If I terminate the input with a 200r resistor, plug it into my ADC and turn the gain all the way up, it comes in at around -83dBfs. not stellar noise performance but it seems to be usable. that said, my wire dressing is a bit sloppy and I'm wondering if these pictures reveal any glaring errors I've made.
The other thing I haven't resolved yet is what to do with the static shield leads coming from both the power transformer and the input transformers. connecting the input transformer ESS to audio ground gives me a very slight reduction in HF noise at the output, but barely. connecting the PT ESS to chassis ground doesn't seem to do anything. Am I missing missing something here?
Two channels and the PSU in a 2RU case, with a sort of atypical layout (PSU in the middle, channels are mirror images of each other). so far i've only put one channel in, just to see how things are working.
At the moment it's passing audio just fine. a bit of noise but nothing overwhelming. If I terminate the input with a 200r resistor, plug it into my ADC and turn the gain all the way up, it comes in at around -83dBfs. not stellar noise performance but it seems to be usable. that said, my wire dressing is a bit sloppy and I'm wondering if these pictures reveal any glaring errors I've made.
The other thing I haven't resolved yet is what to do with the static shield leads coming from both the power transformer and the input transformers. connecting the input transformer ESS to audio ground gives me a very slight reduction in HF noise at the output, but barely. connecting the PT ESS to chassis ground doesn't seem to do anything. Am I missing missing something here?
I'd call that quite good considering you have the PT inside the case and in fairly close proximity to the input transformer. I'd prepare to be comfortable with -70dbF if that's what it winds up being with one or the other when you get the second unit going.
Connect shields as you have been and see what gives best results.
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