Germanium board: what should I do?

[doubleroger]

Hello everyone,
I hope posting some audio related stuff in the brewery isn't breaking any etiquette, but I thought posting a "what is it worth" thread in the black market might have been worse.
So...
I got my hands on this board two years ago, after harrassing a company I work for who had been storing it for years, waiting to "give it to a museum, because nobody uses those old and heavy sh$ts anymore". I asked over and over until someday, the guys decided it was time for some space to be made, and I finally got it.

Some details about the board:
it's a Girardin C121 (serial number: 4) set of boards. Girardin is a little known french company that's now closed. They have been supplying consoles and outboard for the ORTF, then the RTF and Radio france, among others that I ignore. I ignore totally where this board was originally. It seems to be a broadcast board from the 60s, as the outputs of the main board are 2 distinct mono outs (you chose to send track one in master one OR master two).
There are three boards:
-the big one, 13 channels with sends pre and post EQ, input transformers, two masters, a matrix for choosing source.
-the small one, a matrix (12x4) of pots and resistors from wich you can do 4 distinct mixes that are fed to 4 summing buses
-the patch bay, for wich I only have 3 matrix plugs (4 pins).
the big one:

the small one and  part of the pach:

an input module opened:

an output module opened:

I have a lot of other pictures here , though as you can see here, I'm not really good friend with the digital camera...
The summing modules are (seem to be) exactly like the output ones, except they have rotary pots instead of linear fader.
With those 4 summing modules is also a talkback module .

Transistors used everywhere are 2N526 and 2N527.

I've changed fuses and PSU filter caps, installed a panel on the back of the main board, with XLR mic inputs and phone jack unbalanced direct outputs, 48V, phase reverse and 20dB pads. I've traced enough of it to get the pinouts of the different modules and a little more info. Still any schematics or technical docs would be nice to have, if anyone has some. There is very little about girardin on the web...

It's a little noisy, of course, compared to today's standarts, but I love the sound of it. The channels and output modules are untouched for the moment, that probably explains the noise figure. Distortion on the inputs (plosives make a perfect example here) have a very distinctive sound that I have heard on records from the sixties (well, my point of reference is a french singer here, so I guess jean ferrat won't tell much to a lot of people). Of course, one doesn't have to distort anything, and there is no distortion if correctly used...
I have made some piano , guitar and voice recordings with it some months ago and have been very happy with them, and my backpanel worked ok, though having it in the back is kind of a PITA (but having it in front was a much more complicated task, and disfiguring the board was not an option).

The thing is, I haven't worked for two months now, I'm trying to stop working as a sound tech so I can become a real musician, so I have to work less and less until I don't work at all as a soundman, and be a starving musician. I'm already starving by the way.
The other thing is my girlfriend hates me for having this thing in the way for two years now, between a broken mellotron and a semi working hammond. She will hate me even more when she gets shitty christmas gifts.
I have used it, but not on a daily basis, as I also have other pres, and it's just a personnal studio.

Two years ago, I had imagined not to part with this beautyfull gear, and it would hurt me a little bit to separate the elements as it is such a state of the art console. Just look at those vumeters! Still I guess the time might come soon...



Do you think there would be some interest in this, maybe here on prodigy for separate modules or (that would maybe be preferable) for the whole thing?
How much would there be to be made here, moneywise (because yes, in the end, that's why i'm selling it...). I guess I would keep it if it was not enough, so...
Or maybe I should recap (not sure it's a good idea) the input modules, rack them with a psu, keep 4 for me and sell the rest?
Do you think somebody might be interested in it as a sidecar?
Or maybe I should just kill the auxilliary board and make two summing busses with it?
Or sell everything as spare parts (transformers, switches, VUs, inductors, faders, bakelite knobs...) (please don't choose this option)

What would you do?
What should I do? I'm at loss here.

Thanks.
arthur. (yeah, doubleroger is not my real name...)



EDIT: resizing pics

 

[emrr]

Wow, that's a tough call.  These things of course make much more $ when parted out, if you feel completely mercenary.  It would be great if you could find a buyer who wanted it intact AND would pay you a happy amount. 

You should post about this board in The Lab for educational purposes, removing all questions about value and such, as posts in the Brewery tend to disappear after some time.

 

[doubleroger]

Wow, that's a tough call.  These things of course make much more $ when parted out, if you feel completely mercenary.  It would be great if you could find a buyer who wanted it intact AND would pay you a happy amount. 

You should post about this board in The Lab for educational purposes, removing all questions about value and such, as posts in the Brewery tend to disappear after some time.

Hi doug, thanks for your answer, I guess i'll make a copy/paste in the lab with no money talk involved, maybe a little later. Some info might surface after all.
Seeing the size and weight of the thing, I have doubts about the happy end of this story. I'd have no remorse I guess in gutting the small one with the auxes, but the big one, I don't really want to dismantle it, it's been such a pain to get it in the first place...

 

[MartyMart]

That's a gorgeous thing but it's just not serving you well enough at the moment.
With a lot of this stuff the "untouched and not messed with" brigade would be happy
as it is !  - me personally I don't give a toss if it has been "upgraded" to be less noisey
as I would rather have the "tone" of it without the noise !  ( when that is possible )

You need to find some analog desk "freak" to make you an offer ... how about the White Stripes
or Lenny Kravitz  !!
I wouldn't pull it to bits ..... that would be too sad indeed :-(

Marty.

 

[strangeandbouncy]

Hi,


    please don't break it into parts! I always feel terribly sad to see these wonderful pieces in pieces. Besides, you can never quite get that "sound" out of an individual module without the mix amp as well imho. You will probably find that the channels won't actually drive other than a high impedance input to a relatively low level anyway. I am sure that someone would LOVE this desk intact, and you will find that whilst you may get a bit more for channels seperately, they will take a long time to sell, since no one has heard of Giradin. It is a much better proposition as a working console. All those people who split small broadcast Neves etc 15 years ago must surely be kicking themselves now! just look at the price of a Melbourne or BCM10. DEFINATELY worth more than the sum of the channels. Whatever happens, it will need re-capping, and you can actually see an "exploding" capacitor in the picture of the open line amp( right hand blue cap).

  My wife would be happy to have such a cool retro object cluttering up our home - but it might cost me the odd pair of shoes! Besides, I have got two vintage broadcast consoles already . . . . .


  ~Good luck with it, or without it.


    Kindest regards,


      ANdyP

 

[thermionic]

This is just my opinion and I may not be right, but I suspect that you will not get a lot more for the modules on their own. I believe that dealers of vintage gear will tell you that, the deeper we get into the Pro-Tools age, the more desirable small-footprint vintage consoles become *as a whole unit*. That doesn't mean this console is worth a heap of money at the moment, but long term I believe it should appreciate.

If you were to part it into modules, in order to get more than say, a hundred Euros per channel module, you would have to invest in a load of rack cases and PSUs - not to mention the investment in your time. You would then have to put the racked modules on Ebay or in the Gearslutz classifieds as 'legendary Girardin Germanium modules - racked and ready to use'. What price is your time?

My advice is either to use it, put it in storage until it appreciates in value, or see if a reputable vintage broker such as Malcolm Jackson or Nick Ryan knows someone with a PT setup and some spare cash. Even with the broker's cut, you'll make more than if you sell it in the small ads.

This is just my opinion, and we all know what Dirty Harry says about opinions...

Justin

 

[doubleroger]

Hi all, and thanks for the nice answers. I'm trying real hard not to break it into parts, I'm not yet selling separate channels...The only positive side of dismantling it would be that I could keep 4 channels and a pair of vus, but... According to your posts there might be an interest in this thing as a whole.

>MartyMart: "Lenny, Meg from the WS, Vincent Galo, if you read this, sending me a PM might help (though i can't really help on the shipping cost to california)." ;D

>Strangeandbouncy: Yeah, it would be sad to break it down and I hope I don't have to get there. I don't reall know  about the sound of the summing buses as I've used it with direct outs only. I've tried going through them, though, and they passed audio well. I've not had the occasion or courage to do a "direct to 2 tracks" yet.
The cap you are referring to is not a blown cap, it's just the blurry picture. It's one of those caps with a blue plastic enveloppe (just badly cut here) and a soft yellow plastic piece on the positive side. I've seen the same in the mellotron psu for example.

>Thermionic: You're right about the time factor, and seling the modules on their own would take a lot of time, I guess... Probably right also about the broker... I just didn't want to go through any if possible (of course for the broker's cut), but I guess it won't cost anything to ask funkyjunk (I'm in europe).

If you know any more serious brokers in western europe, please feel free to tell me about them.
Any idea what i should ask for? (I have nothing against PMs for this matter).

 

[thermionic]

If it works well and won't need maintenance for a year or two, I guess somewhere around 4-5,000 Euros. Anyone agree? The thing about an established broker is that they will have a handful of clients in mind that they can pitch to. You could always try Gearslutz classifieds.

A couple of years ago I was offered a load of Schlumberger (sp?) modules. They were broadcast and very well built - albeit early silicon. He was talking around 100-150 Euros per module. I doubt this console would fetch any more as modules, probably less.

edit - just to say that branding is, unfortunately, everything. Great build is one thing, but if you can prove Rupert Neve was a designer, the price suddenly increases exponentially. For all I know, this desk sounds better than a Neve from the era...(although the Neve germanium is outrageously expensive and desirable, so take that last comment as hypothetical).

Justin

 

[sodderboy]

I think that if your heart is telling you to be a musician, and that you already have engineering talents and some budding technical skills, then you shouldn't let go of the console in the near term, in whole or in pieces.  The interconnection of the modules can be improved to a more "modern" configuration, and it can serve you as a musician.  You like big vintage pieces, and that console will give you more of a "glue" than any one instrument.
Why don't you dump the Mellotron, or try to get an advance partial payment for some other broken or semi-broken pieces you have?  I understand that you probably cherish them all, but take stock and clear-out some that may have been there for the longest, or something(s) in which friends have shown interest.  If they then own it, they will still let you get "life-energy" from it, and you have less clutter.
It's tough when you make a commitment like yours, but you do have a reason for it, so you have to follow that.
And gifts?  Well, are you with someone who would prefer a pair of shiny boots over a song written, performed, and recorded for her?  That question transcends any holiday gift giving question.
And could you sneak some quick gigs doing ANYTHING, to get the boots too?
Feliz Navidad!
Mike

 

[emrr]

If it works well and won't need maintenance for a year or two, I guess somewhere around 4-5,000 Euros. Anyone agree?

I would feel very hopeful if others agreed.  Granted, it takes agreement from someone with an open wallet.  I'm very doubtful though; I've sold a fair number of antique consoles and console parts.  It's hard to find buyers for extremely rare and expensive pieces.  A dealer would be of great help with that aspect.

Do consider that you will probably never have an opportunity to own something like this again; when it's gone it's gone. 

 

[thermionic]

Doug makes some very valid points. There's no simple way around this. As I said before, in concurrence with Doug, a well-connected vintage dealer will probably have a handful of clients that this kind of gear appeals to. Bear in mind that the above point, i.e. you won't see another one, is important. If it's germanium and it has tone, it could pay to put it in dry storage for some time until you have a plan.


Justin

BTW - Interesting fader knobs - can we get a close up? Are they die-cast?

 

[doubleroger]

Hi al,
thanks for all the supporting messages! I'm quite sure I won't sell it as parts now, it would be such a shame to kill it. I just love being its owner, actually, and enjoy it even more now I'm considering selling it...
I would love to sell the Mellotron first, but it needs a new capstan and some tlc before it's worth something. And I don't have the money right now to take it back to a marketable item.
As I said before, what I really want to do is be a musician, if possible making my own records. Not open a studio or be a sound tech. I mean, I really love doing recording for others, but I guess I'm a little bit the "jealous engineer", the one that would have loved to be performing but did not make the move. To be the musician I want to be, I need more stuff to record, good mics and good outboard, and I need to have more free time, not freaking out about the money all the time... I need all those things more than I need this board, I guess this board is more the icing on the cake when you already have everything to make good recordings, wich I don't... I'll have all the opportunities to be a tech and record other people's music when my music cravings are fulfilled.

I'm propably gonna go the broker route next week.
Please do tell me of serious brokers in europe if you know of some, I'd like to know what the options are before I make the calls.

I have doubts about the 5000USD figure, though. In the light of this below:
-Known problems of the board: I don't have the connectors to connect the big board (input and output channels) to the small one (aux channels) or the "patch". One input module (number 13, the "spare one", of course) is oscillating and producing a pinkish noise, I'd say -10 dBu, but passing normally amplified signal; maybe a recap (16 caps or so) would fix it before I sell it.
Please don't hesitate to give me more figures or ideas, I don't want to wake up in ten years and realize I "sold a neve for 50 bucks".

Do consider that you will probably never have an opportunity to own something like this again; when it's gone it's gone. 

Yeah, I know that... two years of pleading, to get it, two years owning it, and I still haven't seen something as nice anywhere.<sigh>

BTW - Interesting fader knobs - can we get a close up? Are they die-cast?

Pictures added here and here. (Sorry, pics are a little blurry, I think the camera might have a problem, I can't seem to make a good photo ever.)
The fader knobs: I always thought they were metal knobs, but they actually seem to be metalized bakelite or something like this. They feel like steel under the fingers, but when I unscrewed one (picture two above) for the picture I discovered some of the "paint" was gone on the side one does not see and it looks like bakelite. Strange... EDIT: wait it is metallic and black, it might be lead with something over it.


Thanks again for all your answers, you all are bringing a little warmth in my frozen DIYer heart ;D

 

[sodderboy]

I figured that you were just a tease!  Showing those intimate pictures of your honey amidst pouring out all your problems in life, and then disappearing to go off and enjoy the holiday!
:hmmf:  :wink:
Mike

 

[thermionic]

The figure of 4-5K Euros was based on the board working perfectly on every I/O. On any console, vintage or otherwise, problems compromise price by more than the issue will cost to fix. Maybe 4-5K Euros is optimistic.

If you really must sell it, try these people:

http://www.mjq.co.uk/ (Malcolm Jackson)

Funky Junk London www.proaudioeurope.com (note that FJ France is independent - I would try both)

Anyone got a link for Nick Ryan? I can't seem to find his site.

Justin