I want to make a reliable clone of a C800G microphone

[arthurmsc]

Hello everybody! I recently wondered how I could create an exact clone of a Sony microphone. Many people want a Sony, but the price... unfortunately, I do not have connections with people who have this original microphone, and that is why I am turning to you, dear forum users!



The first thing I encountered was the lack (at all) of a photo of the complete circuit in which I could identify the manufacturers of resistors and capacitors. Therefore, if any of you have such photos or can take a photo of the original circuit, I would be very grateful if you would share it with me.



Secondly, this is a transformer. The only useful information is the measurements made by Moby:



1) "Here we go. As I promised. The guy is actually 8.7:1 ratio.

Builded around the EI35 (or probably EI375, since it's made in USA) but that's almost the same size of the laminations.

It measures approx. 600H@ 50hz (primary side) what means high % nickel alloy. Primary DCR=320ohm, sec 29ohm

I hope this helps"



2) "One more detail. I was not able to measure the laminations thickness but it's between 0.1-0.15mm. one more reason not to substitute this transformer with Bv.08, Bv.11 and similar. Those are using 0.35mm thick laminations. It change the sonics. Again... Anything between 7:1-10:1 will do the job but it will not sound the same."



Also, JJ Audio seems to say that their transformer in Akita is exactly the same as in Sony (I don’t know how true this is, I want to know your opinion)

I also found in the original manuals that the transformer is wrapped around a large permolloy core, was made in the USA and has a ratio of 7:1

I would like to find a complete analog or order an exact copy of the output transformer from someone. But this requires more precise parameters.

I will be glad for any information on the Sony C800G transformer at the moment



Third. This is a vacuum tube. Everything is simple here, the original microphone contains a Soviet tube 6Ж4П



Fourth. Peltier element. Again, from the manuals I found out that the cooling element has a 30*30 mm Peltier element, and the only question is how to make it work so that condensation does not form when temperatures change



Fifth. Condenser capsule. There is a widespread belief that the Sony capsule is an exact copy of the K67. Perhaps this is so, I’m going to order several K67 capsules and adjust the frequency response and sound in direct comparison with Sony, but this is after building the circuit and searching for a transformer. If anyone has names of capsules that are as similar as possible to the Sony capsule, please share. Or maybe someone has the technology to improve the K67 to sound like a Sony...



In general, I will be extremely glad for any information. I studied the entire Internet in search of how to create a Sony C800G clone

 

[Barry Hufker]

Have you been down this road? Recommendations on how I can learn to build a Sony C800G clone
Or this one? The Model 800 Tube Microphone

 

[Khron]

The first thing I encountered was the lack (at all) of a photo of the complete circuit in which I could identify the manufacturers of resistors and capacitors.

Why would the manufacturers matter?

Third. This is a vacuum tube. Everything is simple here, the original microphone contains a Soviet tube 6Ж4П

That's interesting, the schematic says 6AU6A / EF94...

 

[kingkorg]

Hello everybody! I recently wondered how I could create an exact clone of a Sony microphone. Many people want a Sony, but the price... unfortunately, I do not have connections with people who have this original microphone, and that is why I am turning to you, dear forum users!



The first thing I encountered was the lack (at all) of a photo of the complete circuit in which I could identify the manufacturers of resistors and capacitors. Therefore, if any of you have such photos or can take a photo of the original circuit, I would be very grateful if you would share it with me.



Secondly, this is a transformer. The only useful information is the measurements made by Moby:



1) "Here we go. As I promised. The guy is actually 8.7:1 ratio.

Builded around the EI35 (or probably EI375, since it's made in USA) but that's almost the same size of the laminations.

It measures approx. 600H@ 50hz (primary side) what means high % nickel alloy. Primary DCR=320ohm, sec 29ohm

I hope this helps"



2) "One more detail. I was not able to measure the laminations thickness but it's between 0.1-0.15mm. one more reason not to substitute this transformer with Bv.08, Bv.11 and similar. Those are using 0.35mm thick laminations. It change the sonics. Again... Anything between 7:1-10:1 will do the job but it will not sound the same."



Also, JJ Audio seems to say that their transformer in Akita is exactly the same as in Sony (I don’t know how true this is, I want to know your opinion)

I also found in the original manuals that the transformer is wrapped around a large permolloy core, was made in the USA and has a ratio of 7:1

I would like to find a complete analog or order an exact copy of the output transformer from someone. But this requires more precise parameters.

I will be glad for any information on the Sony C800G transformer at the moment



Third. This is a vacuum tube. Everything is simple here, the original microphone contains a Soviet tube 6Ж4П



Fourth. Peltier element. Again, from the manuals I found out that the cooling element has a 30*30 mm Peltier element, and the only question is how to make it work so that condensation does not form when temperatures change



Fifth. Condenser capsule. There is a widespread belief that the Sony capsule is an exact copy of the K67. Perhaps this is so, I’m going to order several K67 capsules and adjust the frequency response and sound in direct comparison with Sony, but this is after building the circuit and searching for a transformer. If anyone has names of capsules that are as similar as possible to the Sony capsule, please share. Or maybe someone has the technology to improve the K67 to sound like a Sony...



In general, I will be extremely glad for any information. I studied the entire Internet in search of how to create a Sony C800G clone

C800g has been discussed to death here, i'd suggest using search function.

The capsule is not exact Neumann's replica, it's quite different. Can't be tuned easily as the holes are different. Without exact capsule clone which doesn't exist yet it doesn't really make sense to start making a clone. Headbasket and capsule are 99% of this mic sound.

Transformer is also discussed, Moby has measured the original. The point would be to find as transparent as possible replacement, it should take high levels without any impairment on the sound. The ratio is less important. Important aspect is that measurement is done at 50hz!

Peltier element even though "sexy" to some, doesn't do much, so it can be omitted.

I would be carefull with diferent claims by replica makers, they are usually unsubstantiated, and lack specs/measurement data.

My unpopular opinion is that if you manage to nail capsule and headbasket, you can put any high SPL transparent circuit, even solid state and no one would be able to tell the diference under typical conditions.

 

[arthurmsc]

C800g has been discussed to death here, i'd suggest using search function.

Capsule is not exact Neumann's replica, it's quite different. Can't be tuned easily as the holes are different. Without exact capsule clone which doesn't exist yet it doesn't really make sense to start making a clone. Headbasket and capsule are 99% of this mic sound.

Transformer is also discussed, Moby has measured the original. The point would be to find as transparent as possible replacement, it should take high levels without any impairment on the sound. The ratio is less important. Important aspect is that measurement is done at 50hz!

Peltier element even though "sexy" to some, doesn't do much, so it can be omitted.

I would be carefull with diferent claims by replica makers, they are usually unsubstantiated, and lack specs/measurement data.

My unpopular opinion is that if you manage to nail capsule and headbasket, you can put any high SPL transparent circuit, even solid state and no one would be able to tell the diference under typical conditions.

Of course, I have already read all the topics about Sony on this forum.

Perhaps I think that Sony has some kind of “magic”, it’s on the verge of audiophilia. I don't know. But, I really want to repeat Sony exactly.

The 6J4P tube gets very hot and a Peltier element is really necessary.

Also, I found a manufacturer from China who supposedly can make a complete copy of the Sony capsule, but I don’t know if this is reliable, I will order and check.

Now I need an extended photo of Sony's circuit, because there is not one like it on the Internet. I want to identify parts manufacturers so that I can make the circuit exactly the same.

I would also like at least some more information about the transformer. what kind of permalloy is used there, what kind of winding and what kind of wire.

 

[Khron]

I want to identify parts manufacturers so that I can make the circuit exactly the same.

Good luck identifying resistor manufacturers (especially if you wish to believe those make an audible difference)...

 

[kingkorg]

Of course, I have already read all the topics about Sony on this forum.

Perhaps I think that Sony has some kind of “magic”, it’s on the verge of audiophilia. I don't know. But, I really want to repeat Sony exactly.

The 6J4P tube gets very hot and a Peltier element is really necessary.

Also, I found a manufacturer from China who supposedly can make a complete copy of the Sony capsule, but I don’t know if this is reliable, I will order and check.

Now I need an extended photo of Sony's circuit, because there is not one like it on the Internet. I want to identify parts manufacturers so that I can make the circuit exactly the same.

I would also like at least some more information about the transformer. what kind of permalloy is used there, what kind of winding and what kind of wire.

Good luck. Even if someone knew all the answers, i doubt they would post that level of detail due to danger of plagiarism. The mic is still in production. Some of the answers are in your original post, so now i'm additionaly confused. How are you going to check if the capsule is 1:1 exact replica? This forum has been visited many times before by counterfeiting companies, and caused the members to be very careful when sharing this detailed info.

However, if your intention isn't malicious, all the info needed is already in the forum. Start the project, share the progress, start with the components that really matter. Ask Moby if he is willing to make you appropriate transformer, and i'm sure you will get the help you need.

 

[arthurmsc]

Good luck. Even if someone knew all the answers, i doubt they would post that level of detail due to danger of plagiarism. The mic is still in production. Some of the answers are in your original post, so now i'm additionaly confused. How are you going to check if the capsule is 1:1 exact replica? This forum has been visited many times before by counterfeiting companies, and caused the members to be very careful when sharing this detailed info.

However, if your intention isn't malicious, all the info needed is already in the forum. Start the project, share the progress, start with the components that really matter. Ask Moby if he is willing to make you appropriate transformer, and i'm sure you will get the help you need.

Oh no, I just recently started getting into DIY. After I make a clone I'm going to go to a big studio and do a mic shoutout with the original Sony. Then compare the resulting files in detail in Protools. I will change details and improve until I achieve the result. But for now I have nothing to start with, because there is no photo of the complete circuit on the Internet at all. I'm trying to find information from everywhere, but I don't know any Sony owners. If you can help in any way, I will be very happy. I know, kingkorg, you are just as obsessed as I am with the idea of creating a clone. I know that the film capacitor is an ERO MKR 1841. The rest of the components remain a mystery to me, but I have a guess since the Sony was made in Japan, maybe they used Panasonic/Nichicon?
I also heard that some Sony revisions differ in sound. There is an opinion that the new ones sound too bright at the top. How do you think?

 

[kags]

Oh no, I just recently started getting into DIY. After I make a clone I'm going to go to a big studio and do a mic shoutout with the original Sony. Then compare the resulting files in detail in Protools. I will change details and improve until I achieve the result. But for now I have nothing to start with, because there is no photo of the complete circuit on the Internet at all. I'm trying to find information from everywhere, but I don't know any Sony owners. If you can help in any way, I will be very happy. I know, kingkorg, you are just as obsessed as I am with the idea of creating a clone. I know that the film capacitor is an ERO MKR 1841. The rest of the components remain a mystery to me, but I have a guess since the Sony was made in Japan, maybe they used Panasonic/Nichicon?
I also heard that some Sony revisions differ in sound. There is an opinion that the new ones sound too bright at the top. How do you think?

We have 3 Sony C800s (bought between 1999 and 2010) that differ slightly in sound but are all the same flavor. One even has a PSU with solid state regulators instead of tubes (modded for reliability). We also have an Advanced Audio C800 clone that is very close in sound. It wins some shootouts.

You could order original parts from Sony but they are pricey.

 

[vintagelove]

Hello everybody! I recently wondered how I could create an exact clone of a Sony microphone. Many people want a Sony, but the price... unfortunately, I do not have connections with people who have this original microphone, and that is why I am turning to you, dear forum users!



The first thing I encountered was the lack (at all) of a photo of the complete circuit in which I could identify the manufacturers of resistors and capacitors. Therefore, if any of you have such photos or can take a photo of the original circuit, I would be very grateful if you would share it with me.



Secondly, this is a transformer. The only useful information is the measurements made by Moby:



1) "Here we go. As I promised. The guy is actually 8.7:1 ratio.

Builded around the EI35 (or probably EI375, since it's made in USA) but that's almost the same size of the laminations.

It measures approx. 600H@ 50hz (primary side) what means high % nickel alloy. Primary DCR=320ohm, sec 29ohm

I hope this helps"



2) "One more detail. I was not able to measure the laminations thickness but it's between 0.1-0.15mm. one more reason not to substitute this transformer with Bv.08, Bv.11 and similar. Those are using 0.35mm thick laminations. It change the sonics. Again... Anything between 7:1-10:1 will do the job but it will not sound the same."



Also, JJ Audio seems to say that their transformer in Akita is exactly the same as in Sony (I don’t know how true this is, I want to know your opinion)

I also found in the original manuals that the transformer is wrapped around a large permolloy core, was made in the USA and has a ratio of 7:1

I would like to find a complete analog or order an exact copy of the output transformer from someone. But this requires more precise parameters.

I will be glad for any information on the Sony C800G transformer at the moment



Third. This is a vacuum tube. Everything is simple here, the original microphone contains a Soviet tube 6Ж4П



Fourth. Peltier element. Again, from the manuals I found out that the cooling element has a 30*30 mm Peltier element, and the only question is how to make it work so that condensation does not form when temperatures change



Fifth. Condenser capsule. There is a widespread belief that the Sony capsule is an exact copy of the K67. Perhaps this is so, I’m going to order several K67 capsules and adjust the frequency response and sound in direct comparison with Sony, but this is after building the circuit and searching for a transformer. If anyone has names of capsules that are as similar as possible to the Sony capsule, please share. Or maybe someone has the technology to improve the K67 to sound like a Sony...



In general, I will be extremely glad for any information. I studied the entire Internet in search of how to create a Sony C800G clone

A couple things worth noting.

1 - The newest models use 12at7 in the power supply, running at 6.3v.

2 - Capsule definitely sounds different than a Neumann. Right where the Neumann has that midrange authority, say 800 to 2k (going from memory), the Sony has a dip, and from 9k up there is more going on. That is compared to a innertube modded 87 which has little to no high frequency attenuation.

They are different enough that they actually complement each other quite well. If you really, really want to clone the mic, buy the capsule from them. It might cost 800 bucks more, but you're still WAY under what they cost.

 

[arthurmsc]

We have 3 Sony C800s (bought between 1999 and 2010) that differ slightly in sound but are all the same flavor. One even has a PSU with solid state regulators instead of tubes (modded for reliability). We also have an Advanced Audio C800 clone that is very close in sound. It wins some shootouts.

You could order original parts from Sony but they are pricey.

Thanks for this. I'm thinking of going three ways:
1) order a clone capsule.
2) try to modify the k67 yourself.
3) buy a capsule from Sony.
I will try the third option only if the first two do not work because it is very expensive. May I ask how different your Sonys sound? What capacitors are there? Is the ERO MKP1841 actually in the circuit?
First, I'll try using a toroidal transformer according to the parameters that Moby measured. I have not yet found any information on the original transformer

 

[arthurmsc]

2 - Capsule definitely sounds different than a Neumann. Right where the Neumann has that midrange authority, say 800 to 2k (going from memory), the Sony has a dip, and from 9k up there is more going on. That is compared to a innertube modded 87 which has little to no high frequency attenuation.

This can be used when modifying k67. Thank you very much!

 

[kags]

Thanks for this. I'm thinking of going three ways:
1) order a clone capsule.
2) try to modify the k67 yourself.
3) buy a capsule from Sony.
I will try the third option only if the first two do not work because it is very expensive. May I ask how different your Sonys sound? What capacitors are there? Is the ERO MKP1841 actually in the circuit?
First, I'll try using a toroidal transformer according to the parameters that Moby measured. I have not yet found any information on the original transformer

The difference between the sound of the Sonys is that one may be slightly was sparkly than the others. One may be slightly lower in output, etc. they all sound like c800s. I also have a C80 that could probably be used when punching in a few words and nobody would notice.

I’ve never opened the body of the mic more than to change a tube or replace a cracked capsule mount, so I haven’t photographed or analyzed the components. I have worked on the power supplies and cables and I’ve seen different components (brands and values) in different supplies. I’ve heard the new supplies use different caps (not the original stacked ones), and different regulators but I haven’t seen them.

For my own records I rarely find the C800 to be my first choice, but rather a 67, m149, 251, vintage 87, m269, or even a particularly good-sounding c12VR that we hav around here. The C800 gets awful bright on a lot of people and I think the users tend to make signal path choices and mix processing based on an overly-bright mic. Granted, it’s a clean and bright sound, but I would rather some more mid presence to my vocals, a la Neumann. I also tend to mix my vocals drier and more upfront than others, so for me the Sony is a bit bright.

 

[Icantthinkofaname]

This can be used when modifying k67. Thank you very much!

Just buy the 797 capsule Behringer used in the older B2 and B2 Pro. It's pretty close to the Sony capsule.

Hell, if you get one of the older B2 Pros with the removable headbasket and run it through a good tube preamp it might give you exactly what you're looking for.

A lot of people like the Sony mic because it's the big expensive rap microphone. Large famous studios have them because people want to use them, they do enough business to justify having them (as well as C12s, ELA M 251s, U47s, original C414s, etc), and people will pay a lot to record at these places because of the gear. A C800G clone/copy almost certainly isn't going to attract clients.

You don't need the C800G to get super sparkly clean (dare I say sterile?) vocals. For project and home studios you can get that same articulation with mics using the 797 capsule. Or you can get the Sony C80 or C100 if you need Sony's name for some reason. Though at the price of the C100 there are plenty of things mics I'd buy instead (I could get 10 CAD M179s).

 

[kags]

Just buy the 797 capsule Behringer used in the older B2 and B2 Pro. It's pretty close to the Sony capsule.

Hell, if you get one of the older B2 Pros with the removable headbasket and run it through a good tube preamp it might give you exactly what you're looking for.

A lot of people like the Sony mic because it's the big expensive rap microphone. Large famous studios have them because people want to use them, they do enough business to justify having them (as well as C12s, ELA M 251s, U47s, original C414s, etc), and people will pay a lot to record at these places because of the gear. A C800G clone/copy almost certainly isn't going to attract clients.

You don't need the C800G to get super sparkly clean (dare I say sterile?) vocals. For project and home studios you can get that same articulation with mics using the 797 capsule. Or you can get the Sony C80 or C100 if you need Sony's name for some reason. Though at the price of the C100 there are plenty of things mics I'd buy instead (I could get 10 CAD M179s).

I have a C80, C100, and c800s. The C80 is voiced similarly to the c800. The C100 is an excellent all-around mic, but is extremely flat and not hyped in the high-end like the others. I think the C100 is an excellent mic for the price and should become a staple, much like a good 414. The C80 certainly punches above its ($499) weight and is an excellent vocal/voiceover mic.

 

[Tranasaurus Reks]

I have a C80, C100, and c800s. The C80 is voiced similarly to the c800. The C100 is an excellent all-around mic, but is extremely flat and not hyped in the high-end like the others. I think the C100 is an excellent mic for the price and should become a staple, much like a good 414. The C80 certainly punches above its ($499) weight and is an excellent vocal/voiceover mic.

Doesn't the Sony C80 have the same capsule as the C100, just that the C100 is dual and the C80 only has one? I don't own either, but since you do, do the differences actually result in the C100 being flatter and less hyped? From the specs, it doesn't seem like they would be that dissimilar, but it's probably a different story in practice.

 

[Gus]

A reply to the first post in this thread

Why?

This being the web with no face to face a person often has no idea what is being asked, are you going to start a microphone company?

 

[kags]

Doesn't the Sony C80 have the same capsule as the C100, just that the C100 is dual and the C80 only has one? I don't own either, but since you do, do the differences actually result in the C100 being flatter and less hyped? From the specs, it doesn't seem like they would be that dissimilar, but it's probably a different story in practice.

The C100 is a dual capsule (2 separate capsules, crossed over to different frequencies) and the C80 has only a the “low-freq) capsule from the C100. They have different physical dimensions, but similar baskets. The designer of the C100 and C80 (from Sony Japan) told me they that they purposely voiced the c80 to be more of the same family to the c800. The c100 is more of a “high-resolution” multi-pattern recording mic, rather than a close-up vocal mic. Some people do like the c100 for vocals, as it is very natural sounding. The c80 is a bit more hyped, especially above 5kHz.

Both the c100 and c80 have flat mids and slightly boosted, but controlled lows. The c80 requires almost no EQ for voiceover and has well controlled lows for close-miked singing. I attended a demo at Sony in Culver City a few months ago where a singer sang on several common studio mics (67, 251, 47, c800, c80, maybe a couple more). I thought the 67 was the clear winner for that demo, but many people liked the c80. The c800 was clearly the brightest and “cleanest” sounding, but I thought it sounded too hyped for a female R&b song. If I had to pick two mics from that session, they would be the 67 and C80.

 

[Mikael-ange]

Quick note for the og poster, try looking for a sony ma 55 board.
Doing a google search about it would give you all your answers.

 

[kags]

Here are the factory parts you can buy for the Sony C800 — just beware that many parts have long lead times. (They even sell the capacitors)
https://sonypro.encompass.com/model/SONC800G