PCB Routing

[john12ax7]

For the moment putting aside the pros and cons of PCB routing, does anyone have any more info on the Roland DG I mentioned in the original post?

Do you have a link to the specs? $500 is an awfully attractive price point, but almost a too good to be true type deal.

 

[ruffrecords]

For the moment putting aside the pros and cons of PCB routing, does anyone have any more info on the Roland DG I mentioned in the original post?

Do you have a link to the specs? $500 is an awfully attractive price point, but almost a too good to be true type deal.

I have not found any specs as yet. Here is a copy of a post which has several links about it on the Kicad User group at Yahoo:

Re: [kicad-users] Re: CNC milling - was Low cost PCB fabricator

At the last Arduino Camp in Italy, I've seen the upcoming Roland
iModela iM-01 priced somewhere around 500euro.. looked pretty great.

Still too few informations around about it.. but here it's something:

Picture:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rolanddme/5855809723/in/set-72157627007417474
Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wyX2AYH3D8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMvB92h4pjM
http://vimeo.com/28703965

Hope this helps,

Fabio

Cheers

Ian

 

[Ptownkid]

http://www.rolanddg.com/news/nr111005_im-01.html

 

[ruffrecords]

Aha, web site opens 9th November. Pity the maximum size of work piece is just 3.39 inches by 2.1 inches.

Cheers

Ian

 

[john12ax7]

I still have access to a milling machine, is this something people might be interested in? It's probably a couple months away for me time wise but if so what do people think would be a reasonable fee for something like this?

Some rough specs:
8 mil gaps and widths, bigger is better
9x12 board size, probably about 8x11 useable area max
shapes and cutouts possible, but would be more time consuming and costly.
fr-4 is standard, other material maybe possible

The biggest downside to milling vs etching is removing large areas of copper is impractical.

Could do some freebies to see if people like it. Just wondering if cost wise it's something that makes sense for everyone vs commercial PCB fabrication.

 

[gemini86]

Only way I can see it being worth it is if you can do double sided... So, how's the accuracy of your machine?

 

[john12ax7]

Only way I can see it being worth it is if you can do double sided... So, how's the accuracy of your machine?

Double sided is possible, there is an alignment process so top and bottom line up. The accuracy is very good, but never really ran complicated traces on top and bottom together if that's what you are asking. I used to use it for RF circuits for chip testing where the chips would be epoxied and wire bonded in. Was mostly just a bottom ground plane but a couple times ran control lines underneath. The biggest pain was always the initial setup, after that things ran smoothly.

 

[Ptownkid]

The real catch with double sided milled boards is...no through plating=PITA

 

[john12ax7]

The real catch with double sided milled boards is...no through plating=PITA

There actually is an option/upgrade for that, don't have it though.

 

[Ptownkid]

Can you elaborate on how this function operates? Link?

 

[gemini86]

You can use larger holes and wrap a small chunk of copper foil around a needle, to make a sort of copper rivet, then slide it through and solder... OR, just solder both sides of the component legs... Just make sure they're accessible.

 

[john12ax7]

Can you elaborate on how this function operates? Link?

http://www.lpkfusa.com/RapidPCB/ThroughHolePlating/index.htm

There are also specially made inserts you can use to produce vias, sort of like a little tube then you solder both sides. It's a pain to do manually but effective. Rf guys were getting good grounding in the GHz range using them.

 

[zayance]

Can you elaborate on how this function operates? Link?

http://www.lpkfusa.com/RapidPCB/ThroughHolePlating/index.htm

There are also specially made inserts you can use to produce vias, sort of like a little tube then you solder both sides. It's a pain to do manually but effective. Rf guys were getting good grounding in the GHz range using them.

hmm i'd like to try that, i'll see if it's obtainable here in Europe, i remember seeing that link but the need was not there at that time, thanks for sharing...

EDIT: I'm talking about the Through Hole Plating At home version, but seems it's all made for one use, will have to check that out as well....

 

[john12ax7]

hmm i'd like to try that, i'll see if it's obtainable here in Europe, i remember seeing that link but the need was not there at that time, thanks for sharing...

I think LPKF is a German company so shouldn't be a problem, think I posted the usa based site. Here is the main one  http://www.lpkf.com/

The stuff in general is pretty pricey though, think my lab spent around $10k for a basic starter package, so might be worth looking into for a company, but out of the reach of DIY.

 

[zayance]

The stuff in general is pretty pricey though, think my lab spent around $10k for a basic starter package, so might be worth looking into for a company, but out of the reach of DIY.

I'm sure it is, but i'll ask, just curious......

 

[john12ax7]

I'm sure it is, but i'll ask, just curious......

Cool let us know, never looked into that specifically so am curious as well.

 

[Ptownkid]

that's pretty cool...wonder what the polymer is?

 

[Ptownkid]

the rivet system starter package is $600 usd, the chemical version is $1000 usd...

 

[zayance]

the rivet system starter package is $600 usd, the chemical version is $1000 usd...

That's a little ridiculous for the rivet starter kit, i mean there is way cheaper options for that.
Talking about the Chemical free version right? That's excessive as well, but the box is made for one use only?

Edit: i hadn't checked the box picture well enough, there are mutliple paste packages, and seems mutliple boards as well...
Still need to have a vaccum table tough.....
But again 1000usd when most of the tools are found out there for a dollar...
Their protective film and paste must be supper dupper expensive...., protective film is nothing more than those big car stickers i guess, but a little thinner,
just for applying paste in their respetive holes without bothering all the rest....., could be cool to get only the paste then maybe 800usd 

 

[sahib]

....Still need to have a vaccum table tough.....

Make your own. I did so many of them.

1. Make a vacuum chamber (a box) out of 12-15mm mdf. Use plenty of wood glue on the joints to be air tight. Drill holes on the top plane. The larger the holes the more vacuum you will need. So 3-4mm diameter is nominal. Of course you should drill the holes and clean them in advance. On one side of the box you will have the outlet to connect the vacuum pump.

2. Above is your basic box. Get some acrylic (cast not extruded) sheet of  3-4mm thick and drill the same hole pattern as the table. These will go on top as the replacable plates so that if you accidentally plunge the cutter into them the vacuum chamber is not destroyed. In fact when you are cutting/profiling it will naturally be destroyed in time.

3. Use a vacuum cleaner as the vacuum pump.

4. When you are using smaller work piece lay some thin sheets of plastic/ paper over the unused areas of the table so that you are not losing vacuum unnecessarily.

5. Rake through the skips for the MDF and the vacuum cleaners. Recently my guy Dan brought two Dysons in superb condition. The hoses were blocked and idiots did not even bother looking for what was wrong.

For the acrylic sheet ask your local supplier if they have any scratched write-offs. You probably get them free.

So the whole thing will  cost you only the wood glue.