What's your favourite DIY preamp for vocals and guitar?

GroupDIY Audio Forum

Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
That should work very nicely.. I missed the part of your post where you said you had one...

One caveat... a high value revlog pot may not give you enough control over the highest part of the gain. I initially tried a 22K I had for 312s and I didn't like it.  10K or less might give you better results,  or try a rotary switch if you have one lying around. 

Either way, I'll be curious to hear your experience with the lundahl + 990. 

Another plus is that you now have an OEP to stick in front of Kingston's line stage. Not a super hi-fi trafo, but it has more gain than the 1538.

cheers!
 
Did it, big difference! This preamp now pairs up favouritely with my solid state DIY mic with Dale C37 capsule. The console pre sounds very cardboard-ish in comparison. However, the pre is now pretty dark sounding in combination with other mics (but that's probably the mics).  

Sending a line level singal through the pre with the pad on the frequency graph is very even, with only the slightest bit of high end extension above 20k or so. But interestingly enough, it has a very obvious tightening/fattening effect, it adds balls to the signal in a way I'd never have expected from anything associated with a Lundahl transformer. Really quite remarkable. I'll make a second channel if I can get hold of another DIY 990 DOA just to strap the thing over the master or drum bus.

Thanks! Now for a tube pre. :)
 
It all starts from a really good input and output transformer
This has been killing me! I guess I need deeper pockets. I just need to give up on the idea of vintage transformers - I decided I wanted to hear a good input transformer and started watching ebay for LS10's etc, but never came close to winning an auction.
I've been wanting to try good inputs for the NYD 1 bottle I built and in/outs to start a new tube pre - I've been thinking of something with 6SN7 type tubes. Kingston, what mic-grid inputs have you tried and found really good?
I'm thinking of getting Jensen 115ks, but would consider a Lundhall.


 
mitsos said:
Another plus is that you now have an OEP to stick in front of Kingston's line stage. Not a super hi-fi trafo, but it has more gain than the 1538.

I wouldn't do that. Those 1:6.45 something ratio OEP's are pretty low quality grain generators. I have found OEP's (including the 4-2:1 ratio generic line level model) only really work for output. I have yet to find an explanation but when you first "process" the signal through a high quality signal path, let's say a tube preamp with great input transformer, or a plain tube mic with the 6.45:1 as output, and then use a lower quality OEP just for the output the result can be very rewarding. Instead of generating grain the OEP's now "ring" nicely.

dmp said:
what mic-grid inputs have you tried and found really good?

I have had only good experiences with Lundahl, Jensen, Sovter and Cinemags in all applications. Mixed experience with OEP as described above.

And always looking forward to more and more but as you say, transformers are expensive so testing and implementing new ones does not happen often.
 
I have had only good experiences with Lundahl, Jensen, Sovter and Cinemags in all applications
I've used Sowter and Cinemags for Line in applications on a tube compressor and EQs, and found that I couldn't notice the equipment coloring the sound at all. I was starting to think, however, that mic-grid transformers might be special in the ability to affect the sound from a mic, not sure though.
If you've used mic-grid transformers from all 4 brands and found them good, I'll probably try the Jensens, since they give a 1:10 vgain, while the Lundhal 1530 give a 1:7 vgain.
 
living sounds said:
Did it, big difference! This preamp now pairs up favouritely with my solid state DIY mic with Dale C37 capsule. The console pre sounds very cardboard-ish in comparison. However, the pre is now pretty dark sounding in combination with other mics (but that's probably the mics).  

it adds balls to the signal in a way I'd never have expected from anything associated with a Lundahl transformer.
It's the 990, it's not the tranformer. Or maybe a combination.  I too had the same smack in the face when I corrected the trafo ratio.

There might be something else going on with the "dark" sound you hear, depending on how the circuit is set up. Check out the schematic on JH's site and compare to your build.

Kingston said:
mitsos said:
Another plus is that you now have an OEP to stick in front of Kingston's line stage. Not a super hi-fi trafo, but it has more gain than the 1538.

I wouldn't do that. Those 1:6.45 something ratio OEP's are pretty low quality grain generators.
Kingston, you get my vote for best parts descriptions! FWIW, I have one of those other OEPs on a 990 input, wired 1:2, and though I haven't done extensive testing, it seemed to work nicely.  In the end, it'll probably end up coming out and going on the output of an 1176 or something.

Also, Altran makes at least one mic-grid model.. don't know the part number offhand, but UA uses it in some of the solo 610s, pucho posted pictures. 

Kingston correct me if I'm wrong, but if I've learned anything from your and EMRR's comments it's that newer tube circuits suck: too much feedback, too little THD... that to me means too little color, and tells me that if you want tubey technicolor you want older circuits regardless of the trafos you use, but I wouldn't expect a transformer from a company who claims to make the best transformers in the world to color the sound much, seems like it would be against company policy.
 
mitsos said:
In the end, it'll probably end up coming out and going on the output of an 1176 or something.

This one works well. I've tried it. Also works well as a G9 type output.

mitsos said:
Kingston correct me if I'm wrong, but if I've learned anything from your and EMRR's comments it's that newer tube circuits suck: too much feedback, too little THD... that to me means too little color, and tells me that if you want tubey technicolor you want older circuits regardless of the trafos you use

It's a more complex issue than that. THD is such a generic concept and doesn't describe a distortion type at all. I mean 0.5% 2nd harmonic is "more 3d", while 0.5% of a harmonic mess above maybe 6th is a "ring modulator". They are both still equal THD.

Also, feedback is good when applied properly. An input stage with lots of feedback going to a stage (like the line amp on this thread) with well balanced harmonics is "cream land" (Also see "therapy pre"). Strap a global feedback around the whole amp and there goes the effort of using tubes in the first place since you now made the thing too linear and can't hear them. But of course there are places for this type of linear tube designs as well. Or was. We have solid state now.

A good sounding full featured tube amp with no feedback is actually not an easy design and can be somewhat unpredictable since it relies on individual tube curves that vary wildly even inside a single envelope. That EL84 Mic Pre and some of the suggestions in that thread is a very interesting direction. Lot's of exploring in this "wasteful" area.
 
living sounds said:
I'm still looking for the best possible option for a preamp. What would you recommend? It would be used with several mics, but especially with ioaudios U47 clone.

Color would be OK if it is a thickening (= sort of compression), creamy etc., but it should be clear sounding nonetheless, not hazy, veiled etc. Alive, sparkly, huge... yeah.

Thanks!

i think there were a lot of good tips about vocal recordings till now.

but the question is how do you record the (acustic? electric?) guitar?

since i have the g9, i really like to record simply plugging the guitar to "inst. in"
with my vintage fender pick ups it sounds really nice for funk/rhythmic stuff. no microphone needed. same thing for e-bass
 
I wouldn't do that. Those 1:6.45 something ratio OEP's are pretty low quality grain generators.

I disagree. I use the OEPs on my bauman 1272 pre, with 27k resistors for loading on secondaries, and it sounds really good. Carnhill on outputs.

My favourite pres actually for general use.

/J

 
For what its worth I built a G9 with OEP's.  Sounds fantastic on vocals.  Just started using it to track guitars for my band last week (high gain modern metal), the guitars sound so good it's stupid.  We still can't believe how great they sound.
 
Lukas, don't you already have a V476? What could be better than that for vocals! :)

If you build an API, let me know how it compares to the Neumann. All that "API is for drums" is just gearslutz nonsense. So many magic vocals have been recorded on API consoles: Prince, Stevie Wonder, the Mothers, Stevie Nicks. not to mention Bobby Kimball on Toto IV!!!
 
Cyndi Lauper is another great API vocal.

I'm sure thousands of your favourite tracks were recorded entirely using a single type of console preamp... be it API, SSL, Calrec, Harrison, Neve etc etc. The phenomenon of mix and match outboard preamps is a relatively new thing, for the most part.

It's "Cool", but it's not 100% necessity to make good records by any means.

The differences between various high quality preamps is generally fairly subtle in my experience.... differences exist, for sure, but it's not nearly as great as changing a microphone, instrument or room etc. Especially when the preamps are operating within their headroom - if you are overdriving them the differences become more obvious....

All that being said, there's some great suggestions already above - I regularly use my VP25s, G9 & Baby Animal preamps for vocals and guitars. The VP25 or BA are simple to build and small. The G9 is a bit more tricky but it can really sound quite smooth with the right transformer choices. They are all good.
 
A topic dear to my heart, and I only just read this post now.

With my U47 clone (beez neez capsule and components, Telefunken EF12k steel tube), i found myself constantly doing little shoot outs with my pres and decided that the best marriage in the end was the 312 preamp with this U47 style mic. The 312 was clear and really mid crunchy -  just like API is tediously described. I hate these silly cliched terms, yet in this case I cant find any better way to describe them.

For the record my pres were:

Baby Animals (jlm 1.4/99v and OEP/99v)
Reliqua 312 (cinemag input xformer, original api 2520, EA output xformer)
EZ1290 - (carnills).
Green Pre (cant remember what else was in them).


Here is what I gleaned from my personal shoot outs - or rather here are my interpretations of them, and these are purely my observations and feelings. They are not founded by the Magna Carta, the Ten Commandments nor validated because Quincy Jones once gave me a hug.

a) The mid range forwardness of the API312 vibe paired very well with the U47's circuit's very pronounced midrange. This truly amazed me and was the opposite of what I had expected.  It amazed me because my initial concern, or rather my preconceived idea that two devices which are known to be very mid peaky (u47 and 312) could sound too honky. I feared vocals would sound mid rangy and narrow. In fact it was not the case at all to my ears. They sound so forward and clear. It pleases me so much. Acoustic guitars also sound really crisp and forward as well do vox.

b) The EZ1290 was instantly english 1970's sounding to me, but I felt it was just a bit too intense with the u47 circuit in terms of low mid range. It sounded a little too woofy believe it or not. I actually think the so called "neve haze" is, at least to some extent, about this - in isolation the tracks sound very full and larger than life, but in a mix one needs some serious mixing experience and good ears to get the tracks to sit well without too much mid bass build up. Now I think this was not a problem for top flight engineers back in the day, simply because were highly accomplished and experienced audio techs and knew exactly how to mix good records. I also think they just did it without realising the "haze" since it was simply the desk they were working on. But here's the thing - for the average project studio guy, a bit of EQ cutting can often yield results that are disapointing if not done well. It also adds time into your projects if you feel the mid bass build up is creating a "clouding" issue which your ears don't like.  On the other hand, the 312, without the huge low mid thump, seems to sit in the mix the "first time" a lot easier. This for me makes it a winner on its own and I happen to think my ears pretty good at mixing.  I know there are a lot of "tried and true" formula ideas out there like API is for drums and bass, Neve is vox and acc guitars etc. I think people who are stuck in these "rules" are often the least talented people when it comes to audio. For me the 312/U47 circuit combo is just lushious. I love it.  I am glad I did these personal shoot outs to hear what works for me or what my ears like to hear.

But there is one final comment I make on this -so much is about the microphone you pair with.  On my U87ai, I preferred the EZ1290, at least on a single track- it was a larger sound overall. I still maintain though the 1290 would get mid bass build up issues when doing many tracks even with the 87ai, but at least for one off tracks I preferred the EZ1290 with this mic.

c) The BA with the 1.4 xformer sounded much better to my ears than the OEP xformer. I could hear more bass and treble, or at least I thought I could hear that.  I liked this pre a lot although the 312 with my 47 clone still seems more crisp and sparkly.

d) The Green pre was kind of boring. Perhaps it should be renamed the "beige" pre:)


TUBE PRES -  I actually think the real macdaddy may be Guavatone's Orange 86. I really do, although I have yet to build it. I have this idea that it would be ultimate microphone preamp combined with a u47 type mic. Now Just like I don't buy into these rules about api for drums and neve for vox (save that for Gearslutz where everybody knows everything), I dont think pairing a tube pre with tube mike is a problem. When I listen to John Lennon's vocals I love the open, forwardness of what I hear, and that is famously a U47 into a REDD47. Its for this reason I suspect the Orange 86 would be tonal nirvana. Just building it eludes me. I should get onto it at some point.


Final point - I actually think any of these preamps can make fantastic recordings. History proves this. Whilst I describe this for fun and because its nice to share my ideas, i take comfort in the fact that I dont take the whole process too seriously and am aware that at the end of the day my ears are what is the most important determinant. Gear is just gear, and I am proud to say I build it just because I love electronics and the soldering iron. The best reason in my mind:)
 
deuce42,
Interesting comments... I've found the ez1290s I built (w/ carnhill) sound fantastic with many of my mics - but I have yet to do a big mix with them.  The vp25 APIs I built sound boring in comparison to me (EA in/out, vintage Huntington 2520s). I'm wondering if I should change the VP25 circuit in my APIs to match the 312 circuit identically, which means removing some blocking caps. Has anybody done a comparison like this?
 
For me, it all depends on what kind of sound you wanna get !
for a song you 'll need something brighter, for another one a fat sound !
there's no miracle combination
it all depends on the singer , the guitar, the guitarist and the song !

the G9 usualy works great for both ... you can have a natural compression !
 
Thanks again, everyone! For now I'll go with the 990 + Lundahl combination in the BA, as it sounds really, really good to my ears. Will build one of those simple tube preamps when time permits however.
 
While the API312 is definitely a very good coloring preamp, you could also try the SSL9K which is a ridicously easy and cheap project for the quality you get. Man this thing has lots of gain and is very, VERY clean. Sounds ideal for a go-to preamp. It's not completely neutral, just not as colored as the transformer/tube preamps.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top