I dont like the new PP forum!!??!!?!?!?

Honestly and without offensing anyone....
I think i rather have back the old forum...seems like it was more friendly user and like we knew each other more...
the Market thing??? isnt supposed to be helping each other (me included) not making any $$$ on each other back?
Seriously and please i dont wanna start the 3WW here.....
But i rather send some funds to have it back...

At the same time i understand the needs that pushed Nathan to go xtreme but too xtreme?
And i do understand if someone has a business going on too, no problem with me....
I rather see the black market with all the Stickys at $$$ rates... no Market place... ;D

I dont know am i the only one feeling like this?

Keep it cool guys!!

My comments on the new marketplace would be:

1) that ebay needs competition, and any semi-formalized step towards any new accepted audio electronics e-commerce market is a good thing. 

2) A division between more active sales types and occasional sellers seems a reasonable thing, and may help diffuse some of the grumblings related to sales (prices, clones being sold, etc etc).    I would rather sell things here, but the cries of 'capitalism' always seem close by, and people have gone down in flame wars and left.  I'd like to see that problem go away. 

I realize the market here is only slightly related to what I generally do.  For context (private rant), I have at many times made a good portion of my income from restoring and reselling vintage audio gear.  I am a specialist in antique American broadcast audio, as relates to recording.  I wouldn't expect folks here to be my target audience, but I'd also like there to be a recognition that 'it's my job' on the occasions I do attempt to sell something.  I would hope my contributions otherwise would stand for themselves.  Yes, I can sell any of what I do on ebay for more money any day of the week, but I'd rather not anymore. 

I like the changes.  Of course, I don't have kits to sell though.  ;D

One idea is maybe those with kits left could talk to Nathan individually about "grandfathering in" until your kits are sold out or work out some percentage deal.  I think there is a big $ difference between guys selling the occasional kit and people doing the big a$$ chassis orders.

But then again, this place was never meant to be about selling kits to people, so it doesn't bother me if they go away because of the changes.

I think the new direction of the forum is perfectly reasonable and understandable, considering the direction things seem to be going in.

The only people that wouldn't like it, are people that are actually forced to maintain a different, more reasonable business attitude like paying for space, upholding newer guidelines, etc.

The people that would like it, are those that care more about the future of the forum, and less about themselves.

When did it ever occur, that this(diy) forum was about rolling in money? When i started coming here, maybe only two years ago, it certainly wasn't. I was in awe of the exptertise floating around.
But over time, word caught on.

Besides, the only real changes are the marketplace and a long overdue sticky in the 'lab', thanks to Miko. 

The changes force people in a better direction, while protecting the interests of the forum at the same time. Imo.

Cheers.

3nity said:

I think i rather have back the old forum...seems like it was more friendly user and like we knew each other more...

Click to expand...

What you mean by old forum? The one from say 1 week ago? ?

I don't see much difference except for the added white market. That's not bothering me...I think it's a good thing. Nothing to get nostalgic about if you ask me ;-)

The commercial stuff on here is just noise as far as I'm concerned. I came here to learn a little bit about electronics and build some stuff. Not necessarily clones, just stuff I could use in my home studio. While even having PCB's available makes things a little bit paint by numbers, having full kits is totally paint by numbers. And no one is going to learn anything about audio electronics with them. I bought the parts kit from Bryan for the Green Pre and learned nothing. I sourced all of my own parts for everything else and learned a ton just from having to read about what part is what.

I've never built a project that PRR, NewYorkDave, or Analag have brought to this forum, but I read for hours when it is being developed. I'll never be able to understand this stuff the way they do, but if I learn anything, it was worth the time spent.

Anyway, I think this place has lost some of what made it so cool in the first place in that this wasn't a site for cloners to talk about how to clone. It was about designers talking about circuits and other people like me trying to understand what the heck they were talking about and giving a project a try.

That was all rambling. Sorry.

Matt

The division of the Black Market and White Market came about because of member requests.  Members that offer "value-added-products/services" wanted to have a place where they could advertise, apart from the Black Market.  Then there are those that constantly complained about the "commercial" nature of what some people are doing (offering boards, parts, kits, etc).  This wasn't a reaction that took place overnight.  I literally get at least a dozen complaints a day about various issues and this was one that kept coming up.  So after months and months of members being concerned about this, many of them proposed this solution in various forms.

Some members feel that those selling something and making money from other members should contribute to the forum.
However, many members that complain about forum commerce don't see the contributions that some of these people make and it goes unnoticed because they're done behind the scenes.

The goal of the White forum is to eliminate that and bring it out into the open but with a thick white line to indicate that yes these people sell stuff here, but these people are also the reason you're able to come to the forum without worry that it could be gone tomorrow.  With more revenue, I would like to keep adding storage so that attachment space could be virtually unlimited as well.  (Let me add that this forum is probably one of the few that has redundant tape backups done daily.)
I wanted to give people the opportunity to sell things (since they will anyway) but in the open, all the while members can see that these "advertisers" in the white forum are paying for the forum that everyone else enjoys.

I'm not sure if I adequately explained the purpose and intention, but it certainly wasn't an attempt to alienate anyone.
It's tough trying to please everyone, and occasionally decisions have to be made that I HOPE are the best compromise...  I realize I will take some heat for any change that is made, but I know that comes with the territory.

White Market.... Thumbs up!

Good for manufacturers, good for buyers, good for Ethan and the site, good for us all.

I have a question...

What about group buys?
There a ton of group buys that happen, and these do not seem to fall into either Black or White categories.

A group buy is not an individual selling personal items to another individual (Black Market)

And it's not a commercial endeavor...the group-buyer/organizer is most likely not making money (White Market)


What IS happening though [for most group buys—I know there are exceptions] is the organizer is doing a lot of leg-work and often fronting money for the benefit of others.
...providing a service to other members for free (and sometimes at the organizer's expense) + saving people money on hard-to-get or expensive goods.

So, where should this stuff take place?

And before I get flamed...yes I know, there will be group-buys where the organizer may make a profit, but I don't think this happens too often.





And one other note:

I think there is a misconception that people are making serious skrilla $$$ off of their "Black Market business" or their kit store.
Look at their prices, though...I would be flabbergasted if they're making any money at all!
And they may not be breaking even!

Even looking at Purusha's prices...I don't think he was making much either.
I'm not defending Purusha, but I would be surprised if he made enough off of this forum to buy a Les Paul.

Of course, I could totally be wrong!

grp buys are generally not profit things and i think the BM is fine for that
people helping people

curious to see who values this place that helps them earn money
by paying for a sticky [ you know  , a way of giving back ]

Skylar said:

I have a question...

What about group buys?
There a ton of group buys that happen, and these do not seem to fall into either Black or White categories.

A group buy is not an individual selling personal items to another individual (Black Market)

And it's not a commercial endeavor...the group-buyer/organizer is most likely not making money (White Market)


What IS happening though [for most group buys—I know there are exceptions] is the organizer is doing a lot of leg-work and often fronting money for the benefit of others.
...providing a service to other members for free (and sometimes at the organizer's expense) + saving people money on hard-to-get or expensive goods.

So, where should this stuff take place?

And before I get flamed...yes I know, there will be group-buys where the organizer may make a profit, but I don't think this happens too often.

Click to expand...

I do think group buys belong in the black market and I agree that the instances of people making significant profit off a group buy is very rare indeed.

The problem is there is some grey area.  One thought would be to have group buys in the White Market and have the organizer include the 2 or 3 month posting fee in the user cost?

Skylar said:

And one other note:

I think there is a misconception that people are making serious skrilla $$$ off of their "Black Market business" or their kit store.
Look at their prices, though...I would be flabbergasted if they're making any money at all!
And they may not be breaking even!

Click to expand...

Thank you for this Skylar, you've hit the nail on the head.  

Mike

Group Buys should still be in the Black Market.
Businesses however, should not be advertising a "group buy" in the Black Market.

No definition will ever be all-encompassing without exception...unless you get a team of lawyers to define it.  Even then people will still dispute and challenge things.

Ethan said:

No definition will ever be all-encompassing without exception...unless you get a team of lawyers to define it.  Even then people will still dispute and challenge things.

Click to expand...

Very true.

Thanks again for all of the effort Ethan.

Mike

one suggestion that might work for group buys and certain stores would be a "pro bono" market, where all the accounting is open and passed on to the end customer.  for a group buy, where all the costs are tallied and equally distributed, this would be ideal.  then if the participants want to donate to the group buy organizer (as some have in the past), they can.  or this language could be added to the definition of the black market, so that everyone will understand.

with the white market, some of the stores that currently operate at a "break even" level are going to have to raise their prices.  hopefully their customers will understand that the extra money they'll be paying is going toward forum maintenance, and not into the pocket of the store owner.

even so, i think the white market is a good idea.  i don't begrudge anyone who wants to provide a service for money, and set their own price, and if that can support the forum, all the better.  to me one of the best features of the white market is that the vendors have to be approved.  using purusha as the oft-cited example... i have no problem with him making money on his case sales, but if he's going to rip off other folks designs, even after asking and being specifically told not to, then he should not have a home on this forum.

ed

edanderson said:

to me one of the best features of the white market is that the vendors have to be approved.  using purusha as the oft-cited example... i have no problem with him making money on his case sales, but if he's going to rip off other folks designs, even after asking and being specifically told not to, then he should not have a home on this forum.

ed

Click to expand...

Do you mean that Purusha is not on the WhiteMarket not because he dont want to pay, but because he's not approved?

I completely agree with the change, even though I usually don't like change.

My only concern is the talk of so called "commercial" posts that already exist being intentionally removed. Many of these threads contain useful information and I fail to see the point of removing them as if they never existed.

I will gladly pay to post in the white market though, I think this is a smart and fair solution.

could we just have the threads locked? no lost posts but no further sales

lofi said:

could we just have the threads locked? no lost posts but no further sales

Click to expand...

That is a good option.  Since they are locked they will just fall back but still be available for search and reference.

Although I think BM posts die after 90 days with no new posts.

Mike

I'm up in the air about it. I used to lurk here years ago while going to school. Back then it seemed all the projects were designed so that you could point to point them or etch your own pcb at home. There was more a spirit of DIY and kinship I thought?

I'm SO appreciative of the availability of dual sided pcbs, the hard work that goes into designing them, save space and are professionally made so don't get me wrong but there seems to have been something lost since it moved over to an exclusive kits and pcbs for sale operation. Am I the only one that feels that way?

Edit: I'm glad it's being talked about. :guinness: (remember that?  ;D)

abby normal said:

Edit: I'm glad it's being talked about. :guinness: (remember that?  ;D)

Click to expand...

If we could just bring back the guinness...