Balanced MM phono preamp with SSL9k Front End

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JohnRoberts said:
OK, it's later. Upon sober reflection, it's still not that easy to follow that schmo but I see what looks like a two pole LPF at just over 30 kHz on the very output so my assumption that it wasn't tracking true RIAA up to 200 kHz seems pretty secure.

That module serves as the system input as well as the RIAA encode. It's hard  to follow because the signal goes out to other places and back a couple of times. It's also the right side. The left side has the RIAA In/Out switch and the right follows.
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I'm not sure i want to open this can of worms but using a ua709 opamp in a critical audio path looks like there should be some room for improvement there.  I would approach this with extreme caution since they have probably invested a great deal of effort into getting this right. So who knows what you would get from just dropping a better part in that very old socket? Life isn't usually that simple.

No plans on "upgrading" the u709. I'm pretty partial to stock...This is a later version of the module. The earlier ones were all discrete. I have a second VG66 rack which may see some experimentation but the one that pays my bills is staying in working order.

I have a good stash of metal can u709's. I've gone through four or five in the last ten years. I have lots of spare parts. My business depends on it.


 
The fully balanced i/ps with the correct i/p devices as per GG JR is definitely the way to go.

But while you mine for Unobtainium and send your slaving ships out for virgins, there is an intermediate step that might do.

The fully balanced solutions require balanced lines all the way from cartridge to the preamp.  Rewire them now and simply use this with your present unbalanced RIAA preamp.  You need 2 twisted pairs + shield.

Don't forget to remove the earth strap on some cartridges, eg Shure.  But you must then ensure the cartridge body is earthed via the pickup arm / shield

The -ve sides of each floating cartridge channel twisted pair  are connected to signal earth right at the i/p stage.  The shield is connected to chassis at the earthing terminal provided to earth your pickup arm.  There must be no connection between the twisted pairs and the shield/pickup arm metalwork.  The shield can be used to earth the pickup arm.

You need to do all this anyway for the fully balanced solution.

You may need to rethink how the chassis is connected to signal earth for RFI reasons.  Best if the common star earth is also at the i/p stage.  If you can't do this, a nice 100n ceramic WITH THE SHORTEST POSSIBLE LEADS PHYSICALLY AT THE I/P should connect join chassis & signal earth.  Good gear, eg Sugdens & LEAKs will already be properly set up.

Some 60's & early 70's British equipment was wired like this.  The evil DIN 5 pin connector was used for the 2 pairs + shield but usually without the sophistication of twisted pairs.  But some British pickup arms were internally twisted pair wired for this.

It was actually the illustrious SME that led the change from this simple serendipitious system to the evil RCA phonos used by the former rebel colonies. :'(
 
The Neumann consoles are wired this way. Signal and 0v on the twisted pair and a shield. 0v and the shield meet at binding posts on the back of the console near the AC input connector.

The only way to make it work would be to use shoulder washers to isolate the tonearm from the lathe chassis if I want the shield connected on both ends (or though a cap). Ground loop otherwise. The Shure SE22 phono pre I'm using has no third pin ground connection so the unbalanced connection works reasonably well with this preamp.
 
Phono is not really "high gain". With the simple NFB EQ, if your midband gain is 30dB, the 20KHz gain is 10dB and the unity-gain point is 3X higher, 60KHz. That gives a big fraction of a db "error" at 20KHz.

At 40db midband gain, some hot cuts will give quite large level out of the preamp. In days of slewy chips, I liked simple discrete. Smarter/richer designers in Japan favored quite high rail voltages to allow high gain (for accurate EQ) without stress.

Way too many ways to skin this cat.

Phono (and tape) are unique in audio because of the HUGE difference in gain from bass to treble. Like a tone control turned to both extremes.

Again, "mike preamps" are not a good fit. Mike outputs are 150 ohms SO-THAT they can drive long cables with low losses. In transformerless design, that leads to a preamp with low voltage noise and high current noise. But phono carts are 500 ohms in bass (so what?) rising to 10K-47K in treble (hisss). You want a preamp optimized for lowest hiss in 10K-20K sources. As a rough-hack, reduce input device current by a factor of 100! However this probably screws other aspects of the design.

> small buffer ... make capacitance a non-issue

Recall that most needles "need" some specific capacitance load. The half-Henry inductance would cause a fall at the top of the audio band, even with no C. And C is/was inevitable. So the 47K ~~300pFd loading bumps the last half-octave, AND seems to also be selected to offset mechanical losses in the top octave. Snazzy preamps have selectable input capacitance.

> cable capacitance could be taken care of with active EQ if necessary.

Too darn hard, and shrill hiss. If you had say 4X the proper C, the top-resonance would be 2X lower, 7KHz-10KHz, and fall after that at 12db/octave. The very sharp treble-boost needed to "get flat again" is awkward and inelegant when simple short-cable techniques (or buffers) are possible. Leave the 2-pole top-boost to telephone long-line problems.

> post the RIAA encode circuit

Not the whole story. The power amp has some HF roll-off. The cutter chisel shank has a resonance. Cutter coil inductance may or may not limit actual coil motion. None of this can be allowed to "rise to infinity" or stray scratch/RF would overload the system.

I've worked with cheap lathes where 15KHz was hit-or-miss and 25KHz wouldn't happen. I'd seen somewhere a 50KHz limit on some Big Name cutter.

The 200KHz encodings are fascinating but always very-special and _were_ left-behind in the 20th century.

The VG66 plan shows (as JR says) a 12db/oct hi-cut about 32KHz. Maybe two? R25 R26, and R6 R8?

I also know that good (and bad) cutting engineers will fiddle the system for a good (or bad) final result. Disk-cutting is not some perfect translation. At some point it breaks-up into "impressionistic paint-tossing". A good engineer gives a good impression. But he needs a "good" playback chain to guide his fiddling. Thus part-db "errors" hardly matter.

> using a ua709 opamp in a critical audio path looks like there should be some room for improvement there.

Don't touch it. (as you say) They die easy. They have become hard to replace. And a well-used '709 is an EXCELLENT amplifier, as long as you don't need short-proof or lowest-hiss.

In fact I'd argue that few "improved" opamps can match the '709 for high-end boost. This plan seems to give gain of 40dB at the top of the audio band, or 2MHz GBP, or 20MHz for just-good accuracy. De-compensated '709 will do that. No classic GP opamp would. Some newer stuff would whoop its butt on paper, but considerable re-design effort for possibly no audible difference. (Hmmm.... some CFB chips "might" drop-in with some pinout differences... R16 would compensate the loop. Maybe.)
 
PRR said:
Phono (and tape) are unique in audio because of the HUGE difference in gain from bass to treble. Like a tone control turned to both extremes.

Again, "mike preamps" are not a good fit. Mike outputs are 150 ohms SO-THAT they can drive long cables with low losses. In transformerless design, that leads to a preamp with low voltage noise and high current noise. But phono carts are 500 ohms in bass (so what?) rising to 10K-47K in treble (hisss). You want a preamp optimized for lowest hiss in 10K-20K sources. As a rough-hack, reduce input device current by a factor of 100! However this probably screws other aspects of the design.

Thanks PRR. That's a good paragraph. I'd like to know more about sources of noise, noise spectra and the influence of impedance.


 
PRR said:
Way too many ways to skin this cat.
amen...
.

> small buffer ... make capacitance a non-issue

Recall that most needles "need" some specific capacitance load. The half-Henry inductance would cause a fall at the top of the audio band, even with no C. And C is/was inevitable. So the 47K ~~300pFd loading bumps the last half-octave, AND seems to also be selected to offset mechanical losses in the top octave. Snazzy preamps have selectable input capacitance.
My kit company sold a small add in PCB with a quad gold contact dip switch and 4 polystyrene caps (24pf, 47pf, 100pf, and 200pf). But many could probably dial in small misses with length and/or type of phono cable. I suspect much of the difference between specialty phono cables is the cable capacitance and cartridge interaction.
> post the RIAA encode circuit

Not the whole story. The power amp has some HF roll-off. The cutter chisel shank has a resonance. Cutter coil inductance may or may not limit actual coil motion. None of this can be allowed to "rise to infinity" or stray scratch/RF would overload the system.

I've worked with cheap lathes where 15KHz was hit-or-miss and 25KHz wouldn't happen. I'd seen somewhere a 50KHz limit on some Big Name cutter.

The 200KHz encodings are fascinating but always very-special and _were_ left-behind in the 20th century.
I forgot about the half speed masters... where lathe and source material are both slowed down to drop all frequencies an octave or more. I suspect this is more complicated than it sounds, but surely shifts HF issues even higher. 
The VG66 plan shows (as JR says) a 12db/oct hi-cut about 32KHz. Maybe two? R25 R26, and R6 R8?

I also know that good (and bad) cutting engineers will fiddle the system for a good (or bad) final result. Disk-cutting is not some perfect translation. At some point it breaks-up into "impressionistic paint-tossing". A good engineer gives a good impression. But he needs a "good" playback chain to guide his fiddling. Thus part-db "errors" hardly matter.
Another variable is relaxation of the mechanical media used in the early steps of making tools to mass produce the records. IIRC there is time and temperature impact on relaxation of HF wiggles in the plastic medium.
> using a ua709 opamp in a critical audio path looks like there should be some room for improvement there.

Don't touch it. (as you say) They die easy. They have become hard to replace. And a well-used '709 is an EXCELLENT amplifier, as long as you don't need short-proof or lowest-hiss.

In fact I'd argue that few "improved" opamps can match the '709 for high-end boost. This plan seems to give gain of 40dB at the top of the audio band, or 2MHz GBP, or 20MHz for just-good accuracy. De-compensated '709 will do that. No classic GP opamp would. Some newer stuff would whoop its butt on paper, but considerable re-design effort for possibly no audible difference. (Hmmm.... some CFB chips "might" drop-in with some pinout differences... R16 would compensate the loop. Maybe.)

I will defer to your observation about performance, I only knew them in passing as easy to kill having none of the protection features of later ICs**. If they were expensive back then, surely they are not getting cheaper.

JR

** not just early opamps that were fragile.. I recall working with an early IC voltage regulator (LM100) back in the late 60s and they were easy to kill too...
 
Gold said:
PRR said:
Phono (and tape) are unique in audio because of the HUGE difference in gain from bass to treble. Like a tone control turned to both extremes.

Again, "mike preamps" are not a good fit. Mike outputs are 150 ohms SO-THAT they can drive long cables with low losses. In transformerless design, that leads to a preamp with low voltage noise and high current noise. But phono carts are 500 ohms in bass (so what?) rising to 10K-47K in treble (hisss). You want a preamp optimized for lowest hiss in 10K-20K sources. As a rough-hack, reduce input device current by a factor of 100! However this probably screws other aspects of the design.

Thanks PRR. That's a good paragraph. I'd like to know more about sources of noise, noise spectra and the influence of impedance.

I recall reading a pretty good tutorial on input noise calculation in the old National Semi application notes. IIRC Specifically (and coincidentally) in the old LM381? phono preamp application notes.

The short story for impedance effects related to input noise is that active devices have two important terms, input noise voltage and input noise current. For bipolar devices commonly used in mic preamps the noise voltage generally drops as you increase the quiescent current the device is operating at. There is no free lunch in nature so as the input noise voltage drops with this increased current, the input noise current increases. The sharp pencil part of low noise design is optimizing the current so the noise voltage reduction does not get cancelled by the noise current (times the source impedance) contribution increase.  So a preamp optimized for 150-200 ohm source impedance will likely have noise current issues operating into a 500-1k resistive + inductance source impedances. Dropping the quiescent current will surely help, but a scratch design would typically use different parts.  (Note: my P-10 kit used low noise bipolar input devices for MC version, and low noise JFET for MM version.)

JFETs have significantly lower input noise "current" characteristic than bipolar, with a different relationship to operating current since "field effect devices" respond to input voltages not input currents like bipolar transistors (another overly short description of a complicated subject). Long story short, modern low noise JFETs with near absence of significant noise current make excellent front ends for interfacing with phono carts.

JR
 
> The sharp pencil part of low noise design is optimizing the current so the noise voltage reduction does not get cancelled by the noise current (times the source impedance) contribution increase.

AND the rising impedance of the cart and the falling gain of the preamp.

You don't optimize for the ~~1K impedance at 1KHz because the upper octaves have much more bandwidth.

You don't optimize for the 47K at 15KHz because the gain up there is so low.

> the old National Semi application notes

http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-104.pdf
http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-346.pdf

Note that if your preamp is quieter than a 6F5 6SC7 or 12AX7, playback noise is mostly surface noise not preamp noise.... tube hiss is the reference level for microgroove, and carts generally kept ahead of improvements in wax and other surfaces.

Amazon lists a new book. Price is a gasp, but the preview looks valuable IF you are serious about phono issues. Sound of Silence B. Vogel
 
I'm not that serious any more...  8) (I hear there's a new JW-RAP book coming out too).

Last night I was looking for some old input noise app notes and I recalled an old national one for the LM381 that I can't find any more (i gave away my paper copies). They reference an AN-64 on the Nat Semi website but I can't find it so that may be the one. I suspect they may have taken it  down because the LM381 is long gone, but IIRC they discussed tweaking the input stage current density (of the Lm381 LTP) for MM carts, so in topic, while specific to that device the trends are similar for other bipolar input stages (that I later avoided).

JR
 
> reference an AN-64 ...the LM381 is long gone, but IIRC they discussed tweaking the input stage current density (of the Lm381 LTP) for MM carts

I too remember such a paper, but it isn't AN-64. That has some fog about sq.rt.2 and turning-off the backside of the pair "for lower noise". I susspose someone should scan it and post it for historical reference, but it is mediocre audio theory.

LM381 is IMHO a tape-amp. Lots of cassette decks made then. As a phono amp, it runs into the problem that '381 is not unity-gain stable. You can raise the midband gain to avoid trouble below 20KHz, or you can slug the compensation leading to fair/poor slew. (Tape EQ goes flat above 3KHz so does not have this problem.)

LM121 and LM394 papers have general thoughts on current-scaling. '394 speaks of noise too.

There was a good write-up in a 1970s Audio Amateur on phono preamp input current. IMHO it is still an excellent design, even though it makes LM381 look super-sophisticated. Some care needed between second emitter and first base cap sizes to avoid a subsonic bump (I ended up at 1,200uFd). 
 

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Yup, I found an-64 and while interesting it isn't the one I recalled. I do miss the good old days when they actually showed what's inside the opamps in app notes.

While more of a historical footnote than practical modern design tip, I did figure out a variant on the  "not stable at unity gain" compensation issue with LM381 (actually LM387?  I used in my late '70s design). One compensation trick they suggest is to add a resistor in series with the RIAA EQ feedback string caps, but that causes yet more HF gain error or deviation from true RIAA's falling response at very HF. I found that if I left the extra gain resistor in series with the EQ caps in the feedback network connected to the opamp output end of the feedback string, but actually took my audio feed from the node between the EQ caps and that extra stability resistor, i got much closer to the correct RIAA response, albeit still with the unity gain asymptote way up there (200kHz or so), but without the extra closed loop gain added just for stability.  There was a small overhead cost at very HF and of course I couldn't drive a low impedance load from this node, but with a relatively high input impedance internal stage next, this worked well enough for my first phono pre effort.

Of course way too many ways  (many better than my first effort) to skin this bald cat...

JR

[edit- a good friend found the old app note I was thinking of and put it up on his website-  http://www.waynekirkwood.com/images/pdf/National_Audio_Handbook_Sec_2-7-2_Input_Current_Density.pdf

I still do not advise using bipolar inputs for MM carts, but here is more info on noise calculations for bipolars.  /edit]

 
> National Audio Handbook Sec 2-7-2

Ah, yes.

Wish Nat would post a PDF of that whole book. Dated but 90% good basics.
 
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