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pucho812

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What would be considered acceptable noise floor in an all tube mic pre circuit?

What are good ways to improve noise floor?

Aside from layout, low ripple power supplies and the usual stuff.
 
I don't know what a good value would be but supply hum is probably going to be the source of the most noise. To that end I would minimize the loop area of heater wires / traces. If your doing a PCB, make two huge traces with the return trace running directly under the supply trace (or use two planes above and below and remove thermals).  If it's hand-wired, then just make sure the two wires are as close as they can be (a very gentle twist can facilitate that). Use a 12V DC filtered heater supply. It will use less current and of course DC will hum less. Use an external power supply. Filter the HT using a choke followed by multiple 10K / 47u stages like in a guitar amp (even if you don't have more than one gain stage). Use an overly large bypass cap on the cathode resistor of the first amplification stage to take advantage of said filtered supply. These are my first thoughts anyway.
 
A good tube mic pre should be able to achieve and EIN of at least -120dBu unweighted at a gain of 60dB with a 150 ohm source in a 20KHz bandwidth. All my mic pre designs achieve this. This is 11dB worse that a theoretical noiseless amplifier

Tubes are high impedance devices and are therefore susceptible to to picking up electric fields. Good screening is essential to ensure such interference does not mask the noise of the tube itself. AC heaters can be used but better noise figures are always obtained with dc heaters.

A good quality input transformer with adequate shielding is also a must. Most of the noise performance is determined by the transformer so a ratio of about 1:10 is necessary for best noise performance without compromising frequency response.

Cheers

Ian
 
Good question.

Hey Ian
ruffrecords said:
A good tube mic pre should be able to achieve and EIN of at least -120dBu unweighted at a gain of 60dB with a 150 ohm source in a 20KHz bandwidth.

What would the noise floor look like on an audio precision with the input of the mic pre slugged with a 150 ohm resistor at 60 db gain?
Something like -75db?  How are you measuring "EIN"? I've never gotten that straight...
 
from rare note 45

EIN. Equivalent Input Noise or Input Referred Noise
What is tested? Equivalent input noise, or input referred noise, is how noise is spec'd on mixing consoles, standalone mic preamps and other signal processing units with mic inputs. The problem in measuring mixing consoles (and all mic preamps) is knowing ahead of time how much gain is going to be used. The mic stage itself is the dominant noise generator; therefore, the output noise is almost totally determined by the amount of gain: turn the gain up, and the output noise goes up accordingly. Thus, the EIN is the amount of noise added to the input signal. Both are then amplified to obtain the final output signal.

For example, say your mixer has an EIN of -130 dBu. This means the noise is 130 dB below a reference point of 0.775 volts (0 dBu). If your microphone puts out, say, -50 dBu under normal conditions, then the S/N at the input to the mic preamp is 80 dB (i.e., the added noise is 80 dB below the input signal). This is uniquely determined by the magnitude of the input signal and the EIN. From here on out, turning up the gain increases both the signal and the noise by the same amount.

How is it measured? With the gain set for maximum and the input terminated with the expected source impedance, the output noise is measured with an rms voltmeter fitted with a bandwidth or weighting filter.

Required Conditions. This is a spec where test conditions are critical. It is very easy to deceive without them. Since high-gain mic stages greatly amplify source noise, the terminating input resistance must be stated. Two equally quiet inputs will measure vastly different if not using the identical input impedance. The standard source impedance is 150 ohms. As unintuitive as it may be, a plain resistor, hooked up to nothing, generates noise, and the larger the resistor value the greater the noise. It is called thermal noise or Johnson noise (after its discoverer J. B. Johnson, in 1928) and results from the motion of electron charge of the atoms making up the resistor. All that moving about is called thermal agitation (caused by heat -- the hotter the resistor, the noisier).

The input terminating resistor defines the lower limit of noise performance. In use, a mic stage cannot be quieter than the source. A trick which unscrupulous manufacturers may use is to spec their mic stage with the input shorted -- a big no-no, since it does not represent the real performance of the preamp.

The next biggie in spec'ing the EIN of mic stages is bandwidth. This same thermal noise limit of the input terminating resistance is a strong function of measurement bandwidth. For example, the noise voltage generated by the standard 150 ohm input resistor, measured over a bandwidth of 20 kHz (and room temperature) is -131 dBu, i.e., you cannot have an operating mic stage, with a 150 ohm source, quieter than -131 dBu. However, if you use only a 10 kHz bandwidth, then the noise drops to -134 dBu, a big 3 dB improvement. (For those paying close attention: it is not 6 dB like you might expect since the bandwidth is half. It is a square root function, so it is reduced by the square root of one-half, or 0.707, which is 3 dB less).

Since the measured output noise is such a strong function of bandwidth and gain, it is recommended to use no weighting filters. They only complicate comparison among manufacturers. Remember: if a manufacturer's reported EIN seems too good to be true, look for the details. They may not be lying, only using favorable conditions to deceive.

Correct: EIN = -130 dBu, 22 kHz BW, max gain, Rs = 150 ohms

Wrong: EIN = -130 dBu
 
Thanks Pucho!

I'm still a little confused.

For example, say your mixer has an EIN of -130 dBu. This means the noise is 130 dB below a reference point of 0.775 volts (0 dBu).

What mixer is this? seems like an awfully quiet mixer.

If your microphone puts out, say, -50 dBu under normal conditions, then the S/N at the input to the mic preamp is 80 dB (i.e., the added noise is 80 dB below the input signal). This is uniquely determined by the magnitude of the input signal and the EIN. From here on out, turning up the gain increases both the signal and the noise by the same amount.

So are we assuming the 150 ohm resistor has a standard thermal noise of -50 dBu?

I just know the total average noise level for most line level units (compressors eq's)on the AP bounce around -85 to -70. BW limited at maybe 50K
this is way outside something like -130. What exactly am I supposed to subtract?
 
bluebird said:
Good question.

Hey Ian
What would the noise floor look like on an audio precision with the input of the mic pre slugged with a 150 ohm resistor at 60 db gain?
Something like -75db?  How are you measuring "EIN"? I've never gotten that straight...
"ein"  stands for equivalent input noise, we can't measure noise that tiny directly.  So we measure the actual noise at the output then divide that down by the forward gain, to calculate the equivalent input noise.

This noise at the output is the combination of all the stages from input to output but at high gain the noise is dominated by the input stage.

When trying to compare apples to apples it is important that the inputs are terminated with similar resistance (150-200 ohm). A smaller resistance termination or shorted input will appear quieter than it really is in use.  Another factor for apples to apples comparison is same measurement bandwidth...  A wider bandwidth, especially the HF end will measure higher noise, even though we don't hear the extra noise up above 20kHz.

60 dB of gain from -75dB? output noise  is -135dB? equivalent input noise. Pretty darn good (or too good to be true). You don't say what the dB? is referenced to.  dBu and dBV are a couple dB different.

I used to make a combo input termination pad, so I could provide a reference input level and mic input termination at the same time.  A -40dB or -60dB pad with 150 ohm output side impedance helps measure the gain with a sine wave, and then just remove or turn off the sine wave to measure noise. 

JR
 
JohnRoberts said:
60 dB of gain from -75dB? output noise  is -135dB? equivalent input noise. Pretty darn good (or too good to be true).

I wasn't stating an actual measurement, I was trying to understand how it works.

So you would measure noise (dBu 20-20K bandwidth) with the gain of the mic pre all the way down and terminated with a 150ohm resistor.  Call that the base measurement say -80dbu.
Then turn up the gain of the mic pre as far as it will go and measure the noise floor again, say it now measures -30dbu...What would the EIN be?

edit:

Martin Griffith said:
Basic noise calculator http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Thermal-Noise-Calculator.phtml

so according to this calculator, a 150 ohm resistor at room temperature with a 20K bandwidth, would have -130 dBu thermal noise.  Seems insignificant to any real measurement.
 
bluebird said:
I wasn't stating an actual measurement, I was trying to understand how it works.

So you would measure noise (dBu 20-20K bandwidth) with the gain of the mic pre all the way down and terminated with a 150ohm resistor.  Call that the base measurement say -80dbu.
Then turn up the gain of the mic pre as far as it will go and measure the noise floor again, say it now measures -30dbu...What would the EIN be?
You only care about measuring it at max gain. At min gain you are seeing lots of other noise sources.

You need to know how much gain the preamp is delivering. Thus my suggested input pad...  A 0dBu sine wave through a -60dB pad into a mic preamp at full gain will help calculate the gain.  The output level + 60dB will equal your preamp gain. -10dBu is 50 dB gain, +10dBu is 70 dB gain, etc. 

After you know the gain, measure the output noise and subtract that gain from the noise to refer it to the input.

JR
 
Ok so using my previous example where the preamp was cranked and I was measuring -20dbu: Say I knew the preamp could provide 60db gain, that would mean the EIN would be -80dBu, which would poor according to Ian. Right?
 
bluebird said:
Ok so using my previous example where the preamp was cranked and I was measuring -20dbu: Say I knew the preamp could provide 60db gain, that would mean the EIN would be -80dBu, which would poor according to Ian. Right?

The thing that is missing is how to use the gain in the calculation of EIN.

You terminate the pre input with the correct value, set the gain to the desired value and measure the noise at the output in dBu. The EIN is then:

output noise (dBu)  minus gain (dB)

So with 60dB gain and a measured output noise 0f -20dBu, the EIN is -20dBu -60dB = -80dBu which as you say is pretty poor.

Others have said it is only worth measuring EIN at the maximum gain. I disagree. Many preamps have excellent EIN figures at max gain but it rapidly gets worse as gain reduces. ALL preamps do eventually get a worse EIN as the gain is reduced because the noise from later stages then becomes important, but a good preamp should maintain a good EIN from at least 40dB to 70dB gain. The reason I think it is important is that you rarely use a mic pre a maximum gain but you often use it at 40dB gain

Cheers

Ian
 
ruffrecords said:
The thing that is missing is how to use the gain in the calculation of EIN.

You terminate the pre input with the correct value, set the gain to the desired value and measure the noise at the output in dBu. The EIN is then:

output noise (dBu)  minus gain (dB)

So with 60dB gain and a measured output noise, the EIN is -20dBu -60dB = -80dBu which as you say is pretty poor.

Got it!

ruffrecords said:
Others have said it is only worth measuring EIN at the maximum gain. I disagree. Many preamps have excellent EIN figures at max gain but it rapidly gets worse as gain reduces. ALL preamps do eventually get a worse EIN as the gain is reduced because the noise from later stages then becomes important, but a good preamp should maintain a good EIN from at least 40dB to 70dB gain. The reason I think it is important is that you rarely use a mic pre a maximum gain but you often use it at 40dB gain

Makes sense...
 
Martin Griffith said:
Basic noise calculator http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/Thermal-Noise-Calculator.phtml

I love playing around with these online calculators, here's a very quiet source. ;D
 

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