weiss

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #40 on: July 06, 2018, 01:28:12 PM »
I'm not going to claim any expertise in Mastering, though I am doing what I can to learn from everyone I can.  I primarily mix and master electronic music-mainly stuff like psytrance and trance.  I generally shoot for around 12 LUFS for streaming, but if it's going on a CD or out to DJs, then I try and get closer to 8 LUFS because that's what I'm seeing the other reference tracks in my genre doing.  I have seen people using clip shifters on the drum bus and even on the master bus, and it amazes me how much you can get away with in my style of music that will get me up to that 8-6 LUFS without the audible distortion and "falling apart" that usually happens for me if I'm just trying to squeeze a limiter.

What do you mean by clip shifting? 


boji

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #41 on: July 06, 2018, 07:58:38 PM »
Quote
DMG is a worthwhile step up from Fabfilter Pro Q2 IMO
I just cracked open the manual on this...  talk about your swiss army knife of eq's!

ruairioflaherty

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #42 on: July 06, 2018, 11:02:13 PM »
I just cracked open the manual on this...  talk about your swiss army knife of eq's!

OK, let's do this!  First - I hate Swiss Army Knives   :)

I have a preset setup that is IIR (Minimum Phase) only, stock DMG filters, analyzer turned off, no MS, gain curve magnified so+/- 6dB fills whole display etc

I'm not interested in emulating Sontec curves or whatever.  Occasionally I'll switch in a first order shelf but that is the extent of my craziness.  Options are toxic, and if you have to explore do it when you are not working on something that matters.

I think Equality might sound the same and be cheaper but I can't say for sure.


boji

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #43 on: July 06, 2018, 11:06:57 PM »
Quote
Options are toxic

Options are the donuts to my inner Homer Simpson.  /drool   Shiney brightness bars.... Mmmm 12th octave....

Ok less swiss tooling, more rabbit hole-ing.

Mbira

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2018, 12:13:51 PM »
What do you mean by clip shifting?

Sorry, I just meant using a clipper.  The one I use is called clip shifter:
http://lvcaudio.com/plugins/clipshifter/
Joel Laviolette

Rattletree   |  https://www.rattletree.com
The Rattletree School of Marimba | https://www.learnmarimba.com

weiss

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #45 on: July 07, 2018, 03:22:45 PM »
Sorry, I just meant using a clipper.  The one I use is called clip shifter:
http://lvcaudio.com/plugins/clipshifter/

Nice, i'm gonna try that one out.

Kingston

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #46 on: July 12, 2018, 03:59:16 PM »
Interesting thread. Horrible advice and destruction of sound on the pretense of professionalism. But Interesting nevertheless.

ruairioflaherty

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #47 on: July 12, 2018, 06:46:13 PM »
Interesting thread. Horrible advice and destruction of sound on the pretense of professionalism. But Interesting nevertheless.

How would you get level for a client that demands it?


Gold

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #48 on: July 13, 2018, 12:23:33 AM »
Louder is actually better. Play the same thing but make one instance half a dB louder. It’s not obviously louder but it sounds better.  Electromechanical devices don’t like to move much. So minimal dynamic range makes speakers happy.  The best mix has no low end, no high end and no dynamic range. It of course sounds huge, deep and wide. Then you are done.

boji

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #49 on: July 13, 2018, 12:49:39 AM »
Quote
Horrible advice and destruction of sound on the pretense of professionalism.

Sounds to me more like a pretense of demand and perception of the lay-listener. It is regrettable tho.


scott2000

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #50 on: July 13, 2018, 01:05:15 PM »
I think getting things loud is important in the right hands....

....Not everyone can just turn up the volume.....It's very possible with the right set up to be able to mix up say 80s hits levels with today's in a live scenario for instance but there has to be enough tools around and gas in the system to make these changes as needed......  but most playback methods aren't capable of this......

What are some of the reference tracks you guys turn towards for different genres????

Kingston

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #51 on: July 13, 2018, 01:27:04 PM »
Sounds to me more like a pretense of demand and perception of the lay-listener. It is regrettable tho.

Yes you described it more accurately. It's hopeless. I suppose most don't get to choose their clients and will simply do whatever. Perhaps there's no longer such a thing as a mastering engineer. Loudness engineer would be a more appropriate moniker.

ruairioflaherty

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #52 on: July 13, 2018, 01:35:38 PM »
Yes you described it more accurately. It's hopeless. I suppose most don't get to choose their clients and will simply do whatever. Perhaps there's no longer such a thing as a mastering engineer. Loudness engineer would be a more appropriate moniker.

So, again I ask….How would you approach this?

weiss

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #53 on: July 13, 2018, 01:39:43 PM »
Quote
....Not everyone can just turn up the volume.....It's very possible with the right set up to be able to mix up say 80s hits levels with today's in a live scenario for instance but there has to be enough tools around and gas in the system to make these changes as needed......  but most playback methods aren't capable of this......

Yes you described it more accurately. It's hopeless. I suppose most don't get to choose their clients and will simply do whatever. Perhaps there's no longer such a thing as a mastering engineer. Loudness engineer would be a more appropriate moniker.

I think you are right. I don't know if it's just me but my fear is that more and more amateur producers are already doing the mixing themselves and i get the feeling this will shift to the mastering as well and as of today a lot of AI software is being created (e.g. https://www.izotope.com/en/products/master-and-deliver/ozone/ozone-advanced.html). Of course you can't compare the expertise etc. but a lot of these people care less about quality than loudness and I guess if you're not working for a big music publisher or have frequent clients, bad times will come the next 10-20 years..

scott2000

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2018, 02:30:19 PM »
I really think it's not as easy as saying something that is loud is going to be worse than something that is not.....  Good sound will reveal itself at lower volumes too??? Double edged sword of course.....

I'm not convinced anyone is pushing sonic destruction in this thread????
Advocating less is more is a clear indication of the preferred method to gaining loudness in the least destructive way and that's telling to me.....

 .... although destruction is widely heard everywhere.....

But, especially  In certain styles/genres of mixing , If one can get a sound  where they  want it in the context of things, it is what it is..... their choice.... good or bad... It's not like we solo every track in a mix??? Lots of scary stuff going on behind the context of some mixes I'd guess....


I'm certain I've heard hits way before the loudness wars that are probably better off in the lower volumes anyhow.... and vice versa..

Gold

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2018, 02:45:05 PM »
Yes you described it more accurately. It's hopeless. I suppose most don't get to choose their clients and will simply do whatever. Perhaps there's no longer such a thing as a mastering engineer. Loudness engineer would be a more appropriate moniker.


This has been going on since the beginning of recorded music. Slamming level and having little dynamic range was a requirement for acoustic recording to wax cylinder. Same with shellac 78's. Although not  requirement for signal to noise ratio 7" singles were usually mastered as loud as possible. Sonic compromises were par for the course.

Everything I do is for the lay listener. I could care less what some genius bedroom producer thinks.

Kingston

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #56 on: July 16, 2018, 04:06:30 PM »
Everything I do is for the lay listener. I could care less what some genius bedroom producer thinks.

Genius living room producer. But that is an easy mistake to make.

Gold

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #57 on: July 16, 2018, 05:00:56 PM »
Genius living room producer. But that is an easy mistake to make.

I wasn't singling you out. I was responding to

 
Sounds to me more like a pretense of demand and perception of the lay-listener. It is regrettable tho.

The lay listener should be first priority.  After all they are the customers. Someone with preconceived bias is not who I'm looking to please.

ruairioflaherty

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2018, 09:21:18 PM »
Genius living room producer. But that is an easy mistake to make.

We're still waiting for your input on the OP's question..


john12ax7

Re: Mastering Techniques for LOUD
« Reply #59 on: July 18, 2018, 05:54:55 AM »
Melisma has been ridiculously overused in modern singing.  But it's also an important technique for an aspiring singer to learn.  Then you can add it with hopefully good taste.

That's how I feel about loud masters,  and fields of study in general.  You learn as much as you possibly can,  without predisposed judgments on the aesthetics or usefulness. Once you truly understand something then you can fully evaluate it's value,  or lack thereof.


 

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