48v to 1.5v?

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It doesn't matter he is dropping the voltage with the resistors, that just means the resistors will be the ones dissipating most of the power.

Yeah, but this is phantom power, you don't get a choice on that, the resistors are part of the design and standardized, so you don't need to accommodate that power in the circuitry which is going inside the microphone.

I am not sure about the application the OP is referring to.

Taking a battery powered microphone with unbalanced output, and building new circuitry to use the capsule with standard phantom power and balanced microphone amplifier.
 
If you can find two AT8533 power modules for cheap (not 8533x, which are larger), their innards could probably be shoehorned into the 822 body, and replace the XLR with a 5-pin (like the 825 had). The 8533 is a slightly more sophisticated circuit than that in the 825, and a complete phantom powered solution for the 2SK660 FET.

But for what they'd cost, you could probably just get a used AT825.
 

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He's not talking about using phantom power with the mic as-is, the discussion is about ripping out the guts and putting in new circuitry which is designed to use phantom power.

Good Day Mr C - I appreciate your reply, although I have two questions - and I am NOT being snarky:

1) Why would we want to reinvent that particular wheel if one can use an inexpensive 48v to 1.5 volt XLR transformer adapter?

2) Do we know for sure the capsules can take higher voltage - that is, assuming the resultant voltage is higher than what is provided to the capsules by the original "guts." Otherwise, I am sort of at a loss understanding why he wants to bother.

Again, not being snarky, just trying to follow along. I suspect my questions are, in part, a result of a poor differentiation between phantom and bias voltage, but I understand these capsules have internal FET and so that speaks of bias, not phantom, voltage application to me.

Where am I going off track? James
 
Good Day Mr C - I appreciate your reply, although I have two questions - and I am NOT being snarky:

1) Why would we want to reinvent that particular wheel if one can use an inexpensive 48v to 1.5 volt XLR transformer adapter?

2) Do we know for sure the capsules can take higher voltage - that is, assuming the resultant voltage is higher than what is provided to the capsules by the original "guts." Otherwise, I am sort of at a loss understanding why he wants to bother.

Again, not being snarky, just trying to follow along. I suspect my questions are, in part, a result of a poor differentiation between phantom and bias voltage, but I understand these capsules have internal FET and so that speaks of bias, not phantom, voltage application to me.

Where am I going off track? James
You're really not reading the thread, are you. All these Qs have already been answered.
 
Why would we want to reinvent that particular wheel if one can use an inexpensive 48v to 1.5 volt XLR transformer adapter?

I am not sure what you mean by the phrase "inexpensive 48v to 1.5 volt XLR transformer adapter," do you have a link to something in particular?
In general transformers are not inexpensive when compared to the price of a couple of transistors and a handful of resistors, and when you are very space constrained as in this application, transformers are never smaller than a couple of transistors.

Do we know for sure the capsules can take higher voltage

The capsules do not have to "take" any voltage, they are pre-polarized electret capsules, meaning the backplate has a captive charge, so they provide their own polarizing voltage.
A previous post pointed out that these Audio-Technica microphones have a small PCB directly behind the capsule with a 2SK660 JFET device. See here for one data sheet (Renesas in this case, although I think multiple manufacturers have built compatible devices):
Renesas 2SK660 datasheet

Note that the maximum drain to source or gate to drain voltage is 20V, so this device could safely run with 10V across the JFET without any concern.
Most of the recommendations, e.g. using the Schoeps style circuit, would put much less than that across the JFET. The traditional Schoeps balanced buffer has a 12V zener diode providing 12V voltage for the circuit, and ~2K resistors in the drain and source of the JFET biased at around 1mA. This JFET would typically have around 0.25mA bias current at 0V gate-source (Idss range of 60 to 500 uA), which would drop around 0.5V across 2k Ohms, so the drain would be at 11.5V and the source would be at 0.5V, give or take. You could scale up the resistors proportionally to the reduced bias current, so e.g. 10K resistors in source and drain (a circuit configuration called a phase-splitter), which would then drop 5V across the resistors, for 7V at drain and 5V at source, which is probably a good range across the JFET (2V drain-to-source).

a result of a poor differentiation between phantom and bias voltage

Phantom power refers to the scheme of providing power for microphone buffer circuitry on the same wires that the audio travels, so that a microphone will not need either an internal battery, or separate wiring for power.
The standard is 48V connected to two 6.8k Ohm resistors which are then each connected to the two signal wires to the microphone. The shield provides the return current for the power. Any current provided to the microphone will cause a voltage drop across those resistors (which are in the pre-amp), so the microphone never actually has to deal with 48V, but exactly how much less than 48V depends linearly on how much current the buffer circuitry uses.

Bias voltage in the context of a microphone would typically refer to the voltage applied through a high resistance to charge an externally biased condenser capsule. That is not applicable in the case of an electret condenser capsule, because the electret film contains captured charge and does not need any additional external source of charge in order to function.

In a general sense the term bias refers to to the quiescent (i.e. even with no signal) operating conditions of a circuit, so in a buffer circuit using transistors you have to design the circuit to set the bias current appropriately through each transistor to keep the transistor near an optimum operating point. There are various ways to achieve that which are discussed in various texts describing transistor circuit design and which you can see in all the variations of buffer circuitry devised by the various microphone designers through the years.

I understand these capsules have internal FET and so that speaks of bias, not phantom, voltage application to me.

I hope you can see from the discussion directly above that yes, you have to be concerned about the bias conditions of the FET, but that voltage and current has to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is the phantom power provided to the microphone by the preamp, so they are not really separate concerns. The job of the microphone designer is to decide how to take the voltage available at pins 2 and 3, and provide a useful circuit which has a very high input impedance to present to the capsule (which is where the JFET comes in), and can drive the output pins with a lower impedance. For noise rejection purposes the impedances from both pins 2 and 3 should be very close to each other when referred back to pin 1, whether or not both pins are driven with microphone signal.

All the previous discussion was regarding various ways that aim might be achieved, and fit into the space available in the 822 microphone body.
 
Good Day Mr C - I appreciate your reply, although I have two questions - and I am NOT being snarky:

1) Why would we want to reinvent that particular wheel if one can use an inexpensive 48v to 1.5 volt XLR transformer adapter?

2) Do we know for sure the capsules can take higher voltage - that is, assuming the resultant voltage is higher than what is provided to the capsules by the original "guts." Otherwise, I am sort of at a loss understanding why he wants to bother.

Again, not being snarky, just trying to follow along. I suspect my questions are, in part, a result of a poor differentiation between phantom and bias voltage, but I understand these capsules have internal FET and so that speaks of bias, not phantom, voltage application to me.

Where am I going off track? James
#1) would be the simplest method and one i am considering.
as to #2) The original can not take more than 1.5 to about 10v (if memory serves, i looked it up a while ago). The purpose is to not have to rely on the AA battery where phantom power is available OR possibly improve the performance and head room of the existing mic, by just gutting the entire thing and putting a better circuit in there that would be able to use +48V. Since the capsules already have a small board connected to them that can't easily be removed, the project would have to work within the confines of the exiting circuit in the capsule assembly unfortunately. Theres a lot of food for thought in this discussion, I didn't realize the options were going to be this many.
 
G'day Gents-

@sr1200 -- YES - I am thinking of one of these power transformers that convert 48v phantom power to low voltage bias voltage so one can run computer type, or typical wireless headsets on a larger mixer. This seems easier than reinventing the wheel - i.e., replacing the original guts of the microphone clearly intended for lower power connection. The advantage is you do not need to change the microphone, the adapter matches the low voltage microphone to the mixer using the mixer's 48 v phantom voltage.

Consider the VXLR Pro from RODE: Rode VXLR Pro Transformer-Balanced 3.5mm TRS Female to XLR Male Adapter | eBay

Boya Makes the 35C-XLR Pro transforming adapter:
https://soundprofessionals.com/product/BOYA-35C-XLR-PRO/
The BUB BU-48v is another such adapter: 4pack 3.5mm TRS Mini-Jack Female Microphone Connector to 3 Pin XLR Male Adapter | eBay

An eBay vender operating under the style "Southbest" sells a similar product for less than $20.


@ccaudle -- I believe we are each talking about different types of "bias" voltage. I a, worried the microphone's capsules are rated for very low voltage, like the smaller FET based condenser capsules found in computermicrophones, gaming headsets, some Primo capsuls, and some TransSound capsules sold by www.JLIElectronics.com. Their data sheets clearly state they can only withstand very low voltage levels in the range of 1.5v to around 5v, maximum. Subjecting those capsules to higher voltage levels can damage them. I learned this as a beta product field tester for Telex, VXi, and multiple online microphone vendors, as I served as an independent microphone product reviewer. Recent conversations with the venerable Jules Ryckebusch on another forum reinforce this concern.

I also believe I am using a different meaning or aspect of the locutions: "Bias Voltage" and "Phantom voltage." Shure, Inc., Engineering Tech Notes delineate a material difference between "phantom: voltage used to power true condenser capsules and "bias" voltage used to power FET based condensers used with computer sound cards and wireless microphone transmitters. . See Shure TEch Note: Shure Tech Tip: Phantom Power vs Bias Voltage

I also believe some manufacturers use the phrase "phantom voltage" because that voltage is invisible or ignored by balanced microphones, while powering condenser capsules. Computer type Fet based capsules typically require 1.5 to 10 volts BIAS voltage, sometimes called Plug-i-Power (PIP), which is provided by computer sound cards and some wireless transmitters, and similar devices. The substantially higher 40 v provided by studio mixer boards can damage these capsules; ergo the XLR-to-3.5mm transformer adapters listed above.

I believe suspect we are each referring to different types of "bias," and each meaning entails different voltage levels and delivery mechanisms. You are talking about the sort of "bias" provided by, for example, the JLI Electronics Alice OPA DC-DC Hex Inverter PCB, whilst I am talking about bias voltage used to power the little FET in small condenser capsules - two different meanings of the locution "bias." And, I believe providing the wrong type and level of bias voltage MIGHT, maybe (not sure, so I was asking) damage the pair of Audio-Technica capsules under consideration in this thread. N'est ce pas?

My concern is reinforced by @sr1200 's latest reply, which directly addresses this possibility, so perhaps I am not completely off base. I hope this makes sense and puts us on the same page. (I feel a bit like a Freshman in a Senior Seminar ... so I surely appreciate the time you invested in clarifying your take.) :)

Respectfully (truly) submitted --- James - K8JHR
 
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So i think the missed point here is we're not dealing with JUST the capsules themselves. Theres a board baked into the capsule housing that can't effectively be bypassed without damaging the capsules themselves. As mentioned the mic in question is an AT822. @k brown brought up the schematic for the AT825 which uses the same capsule assembly as the 822 but uses 48v instead. The difference is in the support circuitry between the FET boards on the back of the capsules and the cable connector. It would stand to reason that with the right circuitry, the capsules could be fed proper voltage from a +48V source and operate as intended. So the capsule isn't the issue really. It is just a matter of do I put something in that will act as an amp that uses 48V, or do I put in something that attenuates the 48V to the expected operating voltage of 1.5v and keep the mic stock. Being that the stock mic is unbalanced, that would suit needs as a camera mic, which thinking about it now, i probably could use... but my intention was to try to use this more in the studio, where balanced connections would make more sense and using 48V is more desirable. That being said, i think my first experiment will be to try and set this mic up closer to the 825. I really appreciate the conversation and thoughts and ideas on this thread, you guys are truly and amazing bunch!
 
This seems easier than reinventing the wheel
If you don't want to reinvent wheels, you go the Amazon web site and buy what you want, not a web site that deals in do-it-yourself projects.

typically require 1.5 to 10 volts BIAS voltage

That is fair, I admit I had forgotten that the term was used in that context of computer headset type microphones.

would stand to reason that with the right circuitry, the capsules could be fed proper voltage from a +48V source and operate as intended.

Of course they could, every phantom powered electret mic ever made does exactly that.
In fact I believe at least three or four different ways of doing just that have been described earlier in this thread.

my intention was to try to use this more in the studio

Then running it from 1.5v would definitely be non-optimal for spl handling, distortion, and dynamic range. Pick a circuit with higher voltage and a source resistor in the circuit.
 

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