A = 421 - 440

[pucho812]

At tonight's brain trust gathering,  heard the most incredible  lecture on tuning standards following with the math, science, artistic examples to back it up.  On the math and science side they showed the numbers and measurements of places like the pyramids at giza and how they resonate naturally at A=421 or how some tuning lines up with the Fibonacci sequence.  on the artistic side they showed examples of how back in the era of Mozart they would tune A=424. They  even touched on A=432. Was very interesting to hear matching of A = XXX to certain parts of the body and the healing properties with in.

"If you want to find the secrets of the Universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration." - Tesla

Absolutely fascinating.  In 1936 the American Standards Association recommended that the A above middle C be tuned to 440 Hz. This standard was taken up by the International Organization for Standardization in 1955 (reaffirmed by them in 1975) as ISO 16. All interesting stuff.

 

[gyraf]

Classical retrospective attribution, the pyramid part

Think of it - why would 421 be a A? It's a G#

Once you have any numerical system, it's easy to fit 10% of the world in there if you allow for 10% tolerance.

The psychological trick is that once you've seen the connection, you make your own reason for the connection actually being there: Have we ever heard about the great importance of musical theory among ancient Egyptians?

;D imo, that is, naturally



Jakob E.

 

[L´Andratté]

Umberto Eco´s Foucault´s Pendulum has a fascinating section about that phenomenon, where an esoteric numeric relation is calculated between the Gizeh pyramid and the newspaper stand around the corner (;

I think you mean Fibonacci sequence... That´s where it get´s interesting. I know it from study of visual arts (painting), there´s a close connection to the golden rule, etc.

 

[ubxf]

I thought the trend in tunning these days was more like A 442

 

[zamproject]

Hello

Think of it - why would 421 be a A? It's a G#

Unfortunately you can't really relativize like this

By the time the music was not tempered playing A tone don't have same relative intervals than plying a G# tone (on an instrument tuned in A, whatever freq ref you take)

Best
Zam

 

[gyraf]

..exactly my point.. 

 

[emrr]

I think I remember a motion in the 1990's to move to 444, I don't know if that was adopted on any level or not. 

 

[pucho812]

I think you mean Fibonacci sequence...

yes I did. I made a typo. I corrected it. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

I believe there is compromise in any tuning system, but it works well enough.

After some research years ago I chose A=440 for my drum tuner (RESOTUNE), but typical drums are not even considered pitched instruments, so whatever.  8)

JR

 

[pucho812]

I think I remember a motion in the 1990's to move to 444, I don't know if that was adopted on any level or not.

In europe  or so I heard A = 440 - 444 depending on location.

 

[mjrippe]

I thought the trend in tunning these days was more like A 442

[rant] The trend these days is fix it with autotune.  I remember when that crap first came out and my friend was recording a '60s style girl group that could not hit their harmonies.  They said "Can't you fix it with autotune?" and he replied "Can't you sing?".  What the hell they did live I can't imagine. [/rant]

 

[[silent:arts]]

In europe  or so I heard A = 440 - 444 depending on location.

German and Austrian Symphony Orchestra = 443.
Switzerland = 442.

 

[zamproject]

..exactly my point.. 

ho sorry I misunderstood  :-X

In modern (tempered) music, A frequency it's not that important except for the small harmonics shift, (little brighter...)
The most important is that all musician and instrument use the same ref and tuner (when possible)... which is not always the case 

Not that long ago a client send me a pre-mix, for me to have an idea of what the song is about (before I mix it)
I feel something between strings (plug-in) and the electric guitar, not "out of tune" but not in "harmony"
I ask him to check his guitar tuner as the plugin tune adjustment parameter, 440 and 442  :

Best
Zam

 

[pucho812]

Well I wonder how you treat a Hammond organ for this.  They are fixed to run A=440 due to design.  When you go overseas you either have a new motor or a frequency conversion kit installed. Stock the ac motors running the tone wheels  are 60hz u.s. motors. The conversion kit lets the motors run at 50hz for overseas. Or you swap the motors.
Without the kit or motor replacement a Hammond will be out of tune(flat) when in Europe.

 

[zamproject]

Well I wonder how you treat a Hammond organ for this.

autotune  ;D

For sure there should be problem, in a German symphonic orchestra (at 443 as stated above)
But I guess 95% of the time Hammond is played in kind of music (as with experienced musician) where you can tune other instrument to the hamond's 440.

Best
Zam

 

[dmp]

I hadn't heard that about the Giza pyramid but a google search seems to confirm the resonance of the king's chamber is 421 Hz.
Resonance occurs when the wavelength matches the dimensions of the room. f=V/L, where f=Frequency (Hz or 1/s), V=Velocity of sound in air (m/s), and L=wavelength (m).
So this difference in frequency (421 to 440 Hz)  is a difference in length of about 5%
The measurement's of the king's chamber were originally done in royal cubits (Egyptian unit of distance).
Looking up the dimensions: the floor plan is 10 X 20 Royal cubits (5.24m x 10.48m) with a height of 10.172 Royal cubits (5.33m)
The height comes from a right triangle where the side wall diagonal was 15 cubits.
Seems odd that the dimensions could be round numbers in their unit of measurement, if they were trying to 'tune' it to a certain frequency.  But the cubit itself seems to be based on (or 'tuned') to the dimensions of earth space and time.
The Giza pyramid is a fascinating structure and has interesting mathematical relationships. It is clever enough to be realized in many interpretation (like a great work of art), which is why it comes up in mystical stuff like this so often.
The Fibonacci ratio comes up in it's dimensions as well.
Not sure how frequency can be related to the fibanocci sequence of ratio, since a unit of time does not exist in the mathematical pattern. The frequency is entirely defined by the chosen unit of time, seconds, which is a human definition. Roughly based on the rotation of the earth. 86,400 seconds in a mean earth rotation (60*60*24).  Interestingly this number occurs in the dimensions of the pyramid. I read somewhere that the pharaoh of ancient Egypt  had the responsibility to maintain time.  Fascinating stuff.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I hadn't heard that about the Giza pyramid but a google search seems to confirm the resonance of the king's chamber is 421 Hz.
Resonance occurs when the wavelength matches the dimensions of the room. f=V/L, where f=Frequency (Hz or 1/s), V=Velocity of sound in air (m/s), and L=wavelength (m).
So this difference in frequency (421 to 440 Hz)  is a difference in length of about 5%
The measurement's of the king's chamber were originally done in royal cubits (Egyptian unit of distance).
Looking up the dimensions: the floor plan is 10 X 20 Royal cubits (5.24m x 10.48m) with a height of 10.172 Royal cubits (5.33m)
The height comes from a right triangle where the side wall diagonal was 15 cubits.
Seems odd that the dimensions could be round numbers in their unit of measurement, if they were trying to 'tune' it to a certain frequency.  But the cubit itself seems to be based on (or 'tuned') to the dimensions of earth space and time.
The Giza pyramid is a fascinating structure and has interesting mathematical relationships. It is clever enough to be realized in many interpretation (like a great work of art), which is why it comes up in mystical stuff like this so often.
The Fibonacci ratio comes up in it's dimensions as well.
Not sure how frequency can be related to the fibanocci sequence of ratio, since a unit of time does not exist in the mathematical pattern. The frequency is entirely defined by the chosen unit of time, seconds, which is a human definition. Roughly based on the rotation of the earth. 86,400 seconds in a mean earth rotation (60*60*24).  Interestingly this number occurs in the dimensions of the pyramid. I read somewhere that the pharaoh of ancient Egypt  had the responsibility to maintain time.  Fascinating stuff.

I like to joke that the pyramids are like the wheel balancing weights on car wheels to prevent vibration... we wouldn't want the earth to wobble and vibrate.  ;D

JR

 

[benb]

I hadn't heard that about the Giza pyramid but a google search seems to confirm the resonance of the king's chamber is 421 Hz.
Resonance occurs when the wavelength matches the dimensions of the room. f=V/L, where f=Frequency (Hz or 1/s), V=Velocity of sound in air (m/s), and L=wavelength (m).

Oh, okay, a small room "king's chamber" looks like an actual data point. It's hard to imagine the whole physical pyramid would have any resonance that one could discern with the ears.

So this difference in frequency (421 to 440 Hz)  is a difference in length of about 5%

Then again, the idea of hertz (or before his name became official unit, cycles per second) didn't exist until maybe the 1700s or 1800s. There may have been some gross idea of standard pitch back then, but I'd question whether this 421 Hz resonance, even if it DID originally have a musical significance, is meant to be the note A. Recent standards include C = 256Hz (or at the time, CPS), so any note can be declared the standard.

The measurement's of the king's chamber were originally done in royal cubits (Egyptian unit of distance).
Looking up the dimensions: the floor plan is 10 X 20 Royal cubits (5.24m x 10.48m) with a height of 10.172 Royal cubits (5.33m)
The height comes from a right triangle where the side wall diagonal was 15 cubits.
Seems odd that the dimensions could be round numbers in their unit of measurement, if they were trying to 'tune' it to a certain frequency.  But the cubit itself seems to be based on (or 'tuned') to the dimensions of earth space and time.

I don't see that. Any amount of googling will discover that cubit is based on the distance of the forearm (just as the foot is based on the average size of a human, presumably male, foot).

The Giza pyramid is a fascinating structure and has interesting mathematical relationships. It is clever enough to be realized in many interpretation (like a great work of art), which is why it comes up in mystical stuff like this so often.
The Fibonacci ratio comes up in it's dimensions as well.
Not sure how frequency can be related to the fibanocci sequence of ratio, since a unit of time does not exist in the mathematical pattern.

I can hear a numerologist saying "work with me, there's this connection ..."

Really, if you ignore all dimensional analysis (or use it only when convenient), you can make all sorts of numerical and mathematical connections, and you can be like the zen guy at the hotdog stand saying "make me one with everything."

 

[PRR]

> wheel balancing weights on car wheels to prevent vibration... we wouldn't want the earth to wobble and vibrate.

New brake calipers. Springs scraped balance weights inside the "mag" wheel. Tore the weights off. Drives fine.

I've worked gigs from A=<414 up to whatever. Older violins *were* happiest near 414. Newer musical styles favored higher pitches for brighter sound. Old violins were re-strung and rebuilt for the higher stress. Singers tried to hold the line at 435. Couple centuries and we are well past 430. 452 and 475 have been widely used. Cuba tunes to 436 because they can't get new strings.

440 was always a Physicists' Reference, "scientific pitch". Not Musicians. Until forks, Strobos, and Seiko tuners had to have a number and picked 440. (Later models have a trimmer.) But in orchestras you *always* play the pitch the Conductor selects (carried by the 1st oboe).

When you work with a fix-pitch organ or piano, you all tune to it. (I have been to concerts where the piano was special-pitched for the show and restored after.) On pipe organs the pipe ends were hammered to tune; when the pipe got ragged they were all shortened and re-tuned to a higher pitch.

Bruce Haynes (2002). History of Performing Pitch: The Story of "A".

 

[[silent:arts]]

History of Musical Pitch - a table prepared by Mr. A. J. Ellis and published in 1880