A good A/B test for a boutique power cable? (not a joke)

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[quote author="buttachunk"]The scientific way to make the other cable sound better than the $600 one is to put C37 on it :green:[/quote]

Or to tell the listener that the (cheap) cable was actually 700 bucks.

Chris, I would love to hear the conditions of those tests you performed.

Joel, what are the supposed improvements/benefits of the power cable you're testing? It seems kinda silly to try to develop tests for something if you don't know what you're testing for...

Peace,
Al.
 
Related to this subject Dan Lavry on his forum was asked if power conditioner/ quality power cords can have an influence on audio.

Question:
"Will converters work better with any combination of an expensive power cord, a power conditioner and/or balanced power?"

Dan Lavry:
"Yes, RF shielded power cables can help, but so can a good internal filtering. I go for a lot of internal filtering, supply line "cleanup", series inductance with parallel capacitance, and in general carfull layout.

Being extra carfull is always a good idea, but I rather have gear work in "normal conditions" without requiring all the extra external care. Of course it is not easy to quantify what is "good enough"."

chrissugar
 
By the way I don't know if it was clear that there is a difference only between an ordinary IEC power cable and a well made one (thick, shielded wire with ferrites and quality connectors), and only in conjunction with a power conditioner.
A well designed/built power cable that cost less then 100$ in parts is as good as any other quality cable that costs 500 or 1000$ or any other stupid amount of money.

chrissugar
 
[quote author="alk509"]
Joel, what are the supposed improvements/benefits of the power cable you're testing? It seems kinda silly to try to develop tests for something if you don't know what you're testing for...[/quote]

I'm not sure if your read the original thread, but the alleged benefits acording to my teacher have been something along the lines of "Dude, it'll just melt your face at how huge the differences will be!!!!!!"

I am interested in having a few tests to determine the amount of face-melting that will occur. Chris has pointed out that getting rid of extraneous RF could be a benefit. That seems like something that can be tested with the drill method mentioned above...

Joel
 
I wonder if the teacher would submit to a blind test. One would think so, based on his face-melting comment.

I agree with many who say that blind testing is a stress-increasing situation that can wash out nuances, but when someone is as adamant about striking differences I should think that would survive the extra stress.
 
well, why dont we forget about joel's original post and all of audiophile nonsense as a whole and approach this subject as a group of smart people with some curiosity.

what do we need to use in order to build ourselves a $600 power cable and what can we list as an affordable yet quality power conditioner.

I have suspected that in a room that has balanced power, a power cable might make a difference but in a regular residential environment it probably wont. How many of us have balanced power, right? I dont think the argument is wether or not a power cable can make a difference but wether or not the difference it makes is applicable to our specific environments. If I cant hear the difference with it on my console, then it doesnt matter to me much if it makes a difference at a university science lab or something like that.

Its cool that at least we can talk about this with an open mind.

chris, Id love to check out your friends place with respect to this test or not, its always nice to see a new room and meet new people. Speaking of, you should really come up here sometime.

dave
 
[quote author="PRR"]Here is an experiment you can base your research on (or at least cite it to pad your footnotes)[/quote]

Excellent report. Perhaps they'll get a research grant to allow them to tackle the $600 power cord question!

Conclusion
The helmets amplify frequency bands that coincide with those allocated to the US government between 1.2 Ghz and 1.4 Ghz. According to the FCC, These bands are supposedly reserved for ''radio location'' (ie, GPS), and other communications with satellites (see, for example, [3]). The 2.6 Ghz band coincides with mobile phone technology. Though not affiliated by government, these bands are at the hands of multinational corporations.

It requires no stretch of the imagination to conclude that the current helmet craze is likely to have been propagated by the Government, possibly with the involvement of the FCC. We hope this report will encourage the paranoid community to develop improved helmet designs to avoid falling prey to these shortcomings.
 
[quote author="soundguy"]
what do we need to use in order to build ourselves a $600 power cable and what can we list as an affordable yet quality power conditioner.
[/quote]

Let's try a cheaper version:
Connectors from www.partsexpress.com

1) WATTGATE 52611I-BLK EDISON CONNECTOR BLACK - 12.87$

2) WATTGATE WG320I-BLK IEC CONNECTOR BLACK - 19.80$

3) SY or CY industrial shielded cable with three 2.5square milimeter twisted conductors with copper shield. ~ 5$/meter at Farnell or RS.
For two meters 10$

4) Two ferrite cilinders ~ 10$

5) Heatshrinking tube ~ 2$/ foot

Total cost ~55$ in parts.


A more expensive one would use the for the IEC a better/more expensive one: WATTGATE WG350I-BLK IEC CONNECTOR BLACK 77.92$

total cost for the "money no object" power cable would be ~110$

chrissugar
 
I have a test to try.

Assuming that the expensive cable should make a diference to any piece of gear anywhere in the chain, why don't you use it to power a recording device. A tape machine, a DAW, whatever. This will then be the end of the recording chain. Anything that you record to it should show the benefit or detriment of a good cable or a bad cable. You will also need another playback only tape machine or DAW. Use tracks on the playback machine that you are very familiar with. Transfer tracks, either 1 to 1, or mix to the recording machine- twice, first using one power cable then another. All settings on both machines should be identical for both transfers/mixes. The only thing that should change is the power cable.

Then take the tracks/mixes to a different place to listen, double blind if possible, to the results. I would think that if the cable makes any difference, you should be able to tell.

I'd like to hear what you think afterward.

Jeff
 
> the alleged benefits acording to my teacher have been something along the lines of "Dude, it'll just melt your face at how huge the differences will be!!!!!!"

If that is the complete stated goal of the research, then just plug this cable into the nearest record player, put a bucket under your chin, and see how much face melts into the bucket.

But wait. There are non-$600 cables, and maybe they melt face too. Anecdotal evidence says faces don't melt on hifis powered with $1 cables, but maybe nobody has really checked. So put the bucket under your chin with a $1 cable.

I believe the objective result will be: zero difference with a very high level of statistical confidence. Face-melt will be zero with the $600 cable and zero with the $1 cable, as measured with a ruler in the face-melt. It will be very low with low confidence if you measure face-melt by weighing the bucket with microgram resolution before and after: fingerprints will cause significant variation, some runs showing negative face-melt.

We could ask your listening impression, but it is easy to show that listening impressions of systems that don't blatantly suck are hugely affected by what the listener knows about the system. You need at least a blind trial: someone else changes cables where you can not see which cable is which. Still there can be leakage from the cable-swapper to the listener. You should do it double-blind: a third party prepares both cables to be "identical" so the cable-swapper does not know which is which, can only note a meaningless identifier that the third party reveals after the test is done.

If other comments are correct, both cables should be tested with a magic power filter (how much does that cost?). This also implies that many amps have poor internal filtering; test results would be skewed if you use unfiltered crappy power OR if you happened to use an amp with ample internal filtering. However, the professor did not mention a power filter or any special feature/fault in the amp, so we may neglect these variables while testing his assertion.

Results may also be skewed by program material. Some line noise may be masked by complex mixes like "Tarzan Boy" yet be heard behind simple clear mixes like solo piano or voice. OTOH, intermodulation may not be revealed on simple sounds, but mud-up complex mixes.

Why has your expert not noted that wires, like engines, have to be broken-in? A new flathead Ford ran like crap until the bearings and pistons wore free, and any hifi device over $5 also comes with a suggestion to break-in before critical listening. How long? The length of the warranty might be good (sorry; being cynical). OTOH, if it breaks-in shouldn't it wear-out too? How long is that? On the flathead engine the valves could need regrinding even before the pistons were fully polished.... some mechanisms never really have a sweet-spot between awkward youth and weak/leaky old age.

Sigh... too many variables.

Put some favorite CDs on auto-repeat at good volume for a day or two with the $600 cable, a day or two with a new $1 cable typical of what comes with amps. Find a semi-friend who is able to plug/unplug but does not know about the prof's assertion and NOT know anything about high-end audio, preferably ignorant enough to not notice any visible difference between the $600 and $1 cable. If the $600 cable looks as good as it costs, this may be tough. chrissugar's $55 cable may be chunky enough to confound an unsophisticated observer. Friend changes cable in a way that you can not see which cable is in use (behind the rack, or bag on your head, or you leave the room). Do not change cables A B A B A B..., randomize BABBABAA (flip a coin). Keep separate logs: friend notes cable A or B for each run, you note listening impressions and your guess of $600 or $1 cable. Compile the two logs after the run; friend should probably do that so you can't be accused of cheating.

In the lab: resistance, inductance, capacitance of each conductor of several typical/exotic cables ($600, $55, $1) laying in typical ways (on wood bench, not metal, not free air). Complex impedance from DC to GHz, but it is hard to see how anything over 1MHz should matter, and below 1MHz a 6-foot cable should be a lump-impedance in series with the complex and very variable load of an amplifier.

It is a shame you only have one; still, adapt it as a speaker wire and listen to a mono source. I'm not sure what this proves, except if it sounds different (better OR worse) from a good $1 or $55 cable, in a blind test, something is up.

I'd like to learn if you, a reasonable skeptic, can hear any difference in a semi-blind test. But if your face doesn't melt, I fear the audiofools of the world will suppress your results, make you listen to 16KbpS MP3s until you hear things their way, or lock you in the cave where the guy with the 200MPG carburetor patent is hidden.
 
Ha! Face melting.

Just knowing how much I spent on the chord would really bum out my listening experience. Especially with people freezing to death in Pakistan.

It's amazing how the ear adapts to music. I just got done transcribing the Rein Narma interview one word at a time. The background noise was at the same peak frequency of the recorder. It was a terrible recording. I had to eq every sentence ten times to get it down. Anyway, I noticed that after a certain eq was employed for a while, my ear would adjust to it, then when I swtched the eq, same thing. Certain things would stand out, then they would disappear into the mix after a while.

What's the point? I think our ears can adjust to get a good buzz from any system we listen to, over time that is.
 
> Excellent report {on AFDB}

But note that one of their own sources has found flaws in their paper.

The difference between simple radio frequencies and psychotronic energy was not considered in the MIT study. "The operational modalities of AFDBs for EM and psychotronic energies are completely different, and thus the experiment conducted by Rahimi et al. is inappropriate to test the effectiveness of deflector beanie technology in stopping mind control."

The MIT protocol may not have been rigorously documented: "While they say that the test helmets were made of Reynolds aluminum foil,... one can clearly see a box of Chef's Pride brand foil on their work bench..." Even if the Chef's Pride foil was just lunch, it is bad form to have it on the same bench when testing Reynolds, AND take a picture.

And three of the investigtors are with a lab that takes funding from DARPA.....

There are futher criticisms, some objective and some that can only be tested with paranoia, that need response from Rahimi et al.
 
[quote author="CJ"]

It's amazing how the ear adapts to music. [/quote]

man, if that aint the truth. I have a big mix coming up and changed the input pots on my two track a while back from carbon to wirewounds. They've been bugging me, so I spent a few hours listening to different pots. Chased my tail for too long trying to figure whats best and have to repeat everything tomorrow, boo, lost all subjectivity after tweaking for too long...

dave
 
[quote author="CJ"]It's amazing how the ear adapts to music.[/quote]

Yesterday that was a good thing. We went to see a new anime film that probably had a horrible copy of the sound. Snap, crackle & pop all the time with heavy distortion everywhere. After 15 minutes I could start watching the film.. :cool:
 
And it's amazing how the placebo effect works with our ears. A month ago I was working in the studio with a producer and we spent more than 1 hour trying to fine-tune the autotuner on the vocals. Then we noticed it was bypassed. I swear we could hear the differences! I'm sure most of you have had similar experiences.


"Dude, it'll just melt your face at how huge the differences will be!!!!!!"

I'm sure that you could melt a face with any kind of power cable. Just mix it with the right chemicals.

Seriously, if you want to do a real listening test I recommend reading some of the stuff that has been written on the subject of conducting listening tests. AES is a good place to start. I have a pile of those listeningtest preprints somewhere if you want.

/Anders
 
PRR, the metrology employed in your face-melt experimental design is seriously flawed. You have no way to differentiate between mass transfer from melted faces or mass transfer from drool. I strongly suggest that the material collected be subjected to a quantitative chemical analysis, such as HPLC or FTIR-MS in ordert to determine the material's true composition. Secondly, you have no system in place to ensure that there are no powerful religious relics in the near vacinity which have been previously demonstrated to melt faces without the effects of high fidelity music (see Spielberg, et. al.).

-Chris
 
> experimental design is seriously flawed.

There is actually a much greater, and serious, problem.

Universities have regulations about research on human subjects. Sample overview; the exact rules may vary from school to school but they are all under Federal regulation 45 CFR 46. Similar regulations must apply in Europe and many other parts of the world. Even in Arizona.

You are not allowed to hurt humans.

There are Reviewed, Expedited, and Exempt categories. Nasty experiments must be carefully described and formally approved. Less-nasty experiments may be approved with less formality. And there are some experimental activities that are so safe that an experimenter may declare them "exempt", but he/she better read all the fine print because there are some twists and turns in the criteria, and calling an experiment "exempt" when it isn't will get you in deep trouble.

The proposed listening tests do not meet any of the listed Exempt categories (because the rules aim at food/drug experiments and listening is not really considered). There may be a loophole if the listening is part of a regular Music Appreciation course where listening "is conducted in an established or commonly accepted educational setting and involves normal educational practices". (We could look at 21 CFR Sec. 812(c)(4), but "It is the sponsor?s responsibility to provide sufficient justification to support the exemption..." and "...must not put subjects at risk.")

However, I believe the professor's initial brief "Dude, it will melt your face off!!!" puts the experimenter on notice that the experimental subject IS in risk of Great Harm. Such an experiment could not be approved in the US, any more than testing a flame-thrower on live humans. This is not a "Unanticipated Adverse Device Effect", since an adverse effect (face-melting) is obviously anticipated. The protocol has to be adapted so the face can NOT melt, with a HIGH degree of confidence. In light of the prof's assertion, this is unlikely until he formally retracts this informal statement.

Alternatively, we could try to melt the face off of mice, flatworms, or other non-human subjects, though this means turning to a different set of rules about experiments on animals. Or we could try a non-living face, such as the heads in the aluminum-beanie paper. Or corpses. But then we have to allow for differences in hearing acuity between humans, flatworms, and clay heads.

Another serious flaw is that exceeding recognized Standards for exposure to high-level sound will cause permanent hearing loss, and the levels audiophiles commonly use to audition systems approaches dangerous levels (85dB SPL is "safe", any more has to be studied).

In terms of institutional bureaucratic experimental regulations, there is no way Joel can be allowed to run this experiment, not without watering-down the test conditions to the point that they are meaningless.

There may also be university regulations about privacy of experimental subjects. In this case, I believe that Joel's identity might have to be double-blinded, so that not even Joel could know that he was the experimental subject.
 
I think I've got it all figured out:

flatworm_small.jpg


I happen to have a couple of flatworms on hand, as I am running a small scale version of the Stanford Prison Study with them. They were slated to be subjects in a modified Milgram experiment, but I suppose the audiophile test is just as interesting.

BTW, flatworms only respond to jazz, so we must take that into account.

-Chris
 
I'm a little bit intrigued. Am I the only one on this forum who listen to some high end equipment and hear those diferences. I'm curious because it is hard to believe that nobody have acces to this kind of equipment (a friend) , and has no curiosity to see if some of the audiophool things work or not.
I don't own a high resolution system but for a long time I had access to some and tried to understand why there are differences.
I know that some of the proaudio designers hear these things but do not speak in public about it. They don't want to compromise their reputation.

chrissugar
 
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