A Taste of Things to Come

[JohnRoberts]

Obviously. But we cannot let emotional reactions determine policy like that. We're still hard-wired for life as a member of a small group of hunter-gatherers, not as a the globally interconnected high-tech civilization we have become.

Evolution occurs pretty slowly but it appears social media is speeding up cultural shifts for better and worse, mostly worse as we don't grasp all the unintended consequences from sudden shifts.

For instance, far more lifes have been lost (as well as productivity) because of sucessfull lobbying by the food and gun industry in the US over many decades than in 9/11.

That may be an interesting data point but not a very fair comparison...  Attacking the WTC was a goal of al qaeda (they attempted more than once.) They figured it would cause the cowardly US to withdraw from the middle east, freeing them up to reestablish their caliphate. A miscalculation on their part.

Since terrorists (and police) use guns too, that gun harm data is compromised. As I mentioned recently in France they locate armed guards outside Jewish meeting spaces. 

It takes far more cognitive effort to realizes a long-term structural thread and react to stop it than with a violent short-term thread like terrorism. It's what the terrorists are banking on.

I wish terrorism was a short term threat. The definition of terrorism has also evolved over the years (now a single deranged antisemitic, white nationalist, shooter is called a terrorist). There are many examples of asymmetrical warfare in history (like viet nam and even our revolution) but one distinction for modern terrorism is being promoted by a non-nation state.)  It has become a broad anti-west ideology so squash one, and other rises up. Our globally connected high technology is used by those terrorist to spread their venom, while a lot is spread the old fashioned way (extreme religious teaching).

There are public riots in Pakistan right now because a christian woman was released from blasphemy charges (I hope she is already on her way out of the region). Pakistani legislators have been assassinated just for proposing to relax blasphemy laws. 

In my home town, Cologne, we now had a number of attempted islamic terrorist acts. Thank goodness they all didn't get very far.

German authorities have been alert to terrorism for a long time. Speaking of 9/11 reportedly the hijackers staged from an apartment in Hamburg, but their attack plans were formed in Afghanistan (and funded by Saudi money).

We already abandoned all semblances of privacy vs. the government to "stop the terrorists"... People in the west live in historically unprecedented safety and security. Yet, or rather because of that, they are more fearful of these kinds of threads.

Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

My last thought is about the morals: Should we let the thread of a few terrorists getting into the country push us to abandon our humanitarian duty to a million people fleeing war and famine (our Nato allies helped create with their wars)? Is the live of a syrian refugee worth less than the life of a EU citizien from Britain or Germany or France? Think about that.

Ignoring the root causes of mass migration does not fix the problem. But removing the reasons for mass migration is not trivial. Why did so many people escape Syria... A civil war where the Assad government used truly hideous means (gas) killing many innocent civilians. One almost practical solution is creating a safe space within the region so they do not have to literally run for their lives to Europe. Why don't the other nations in the region open their doors to these migrants?

We enforced a no-fly zone over the Kurdish region of Iraq when Saddam was doing unspeakable things to the Kurds.  Of course this does not satisfy the economic migrants looking for western jobs and/or services.

Rule of law in the region could dramatically improve the economy of these troubled regions. Going back a century or two some of these poor bombed out cities were formerly great centers of trade and civilization. Of course easier to say than accomplish.

Indeed the west does not appreciate how good we have it... How many polling places in Germany were bombed last week? 31 were killed and many more injured at a polling place in Pakistan this year.


JR

 

[Banzai]

.
I agree with most of what you are saying, but what annoys me is that I have seen so many US and UK flags burned in Muslim countries over the years, yet when they have a problem,  they head for Christian countries.  I exclude Turkey and Jordan from that criticism, they have borne the greatest burden.  Yet Iran, Saudi and the gulf states seem to get away with it along with the North African Arabic speaking nations.

DaveP

You desperately need a fact-check on Iran...

They've constantly been in the world's top-5 largest refugee hosts: there are around 2.5 million Afghan refugees in Iran (1 million registered / 1.5 million unregistered). This number was much higher in the 80's and 90's, and has progressively come down to the current level.

http://www.unhcr.org/news/latest/2018/9/5b8e9f414/iran-needs-help-support-afghan-refugees-unhcr-chief.html
https://borgenproject.org/ten-facts-about-refugees-in-iran/

Then there are the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's who fled Saddam, or the US invasion:
https://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/12/world/after-the-war-refugees-iraqis-in-iran-unwanted-in-both-countries.html

Germany is the only OECD country pulling its weight internationally. All the other large refugee hosts are developing countries, bordering never-ending war zones.

 

[Banzai]

Why did so many people escape Syria... A civil war where the Assad government used truly hideous means (gas) killing many innocent civilians. One almost practical solution is creating a safe space within the region so they do not have to literally run for their lives to Europe.

A Syrian "civil war" would not involve the US, Turkey, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, France, Britain & Israel on one side, and Syria, Russia, & Iran on the other.

This was a pure regime-change war – completely self-inflicted European refugee problem.

 

[living sounds]

I agree with most of what you are saying, but what annoys me is that I have seen so many US and UK flags burned in Muslim countries over the years, yet when they have a problem,  they head for Christian countries. 

Well, who is "they"? That's the cognitive shortcut right there: Lumping in all people from one country together. Those fleeing war are not (necessarily) the  ones burning the flags.

And we should not forget the root causes for islamic extremism, from colionalism to the middle-east conflict to drone strikes killing children.  Obviously no excuse, but a causal explanation.

The psychology at play behind the right-wing nutjobs in the US carrying out the recent attacks (the adequacy of the term "terrorism" for the shooter is indeed questionable) and those carrying out violent Isis attacks is probably not that different.

 

[living sounds]

Benjamin Franklin once said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

Good quote, though ironically it was not meant pro-privacy but rather pro-taxation and pro-defense spending.

https://www.npr.org/2015/03/02/390245038/ben-franklins-famous-liberty-safety-quote-lost-its-context-in-21st-century

 

[DaveP]

Those fleeing war are not (necessarily) the  ones burning the flags.

Agreed. but Merkel made no distinction and just opened the gates without checking.

This is what happens when you open the doors to people who don't have the same culture:-

Latest Child Abusers

Previous batches

White girls in care were deemed fair game to these Muslims.

And this is where they came from, a country so very religious that they want to hang a Christian girl for Blasphemy

The Imam wants the judges killed for letting the girl off, Islam obviously brings out the best in people

DaveP

 

[Banzai]

How about referring to Pakistan, as Pakistan. Not as 'Islam'.
And Pakistani men, as Pakistani's. Not 'these Muslims'.

If I used your language to describe Israeli's, it would sound like this:
"These Jews think it's okay to shoot and kill children. Judaism obviously brings the best out of people".

Sound Kosher to you, or anti-Semitic?
And how long would it take before someone on this forum takes offence to me referring to Israeli's as 'these Jews'?

A group of Pakistani, American, or Israeli men, don't define religions. This isn't about being PC, it's about being factual: men who kill or rape women and children, aren't religious. They're indoctrinated or sick.

--

PS: tens of thousands of underage boys being raped by paedophile Catholic priests, does that define Christianity?

 

[DaveP]

These crimes in Rochdale and other towns were permitted by Political Correctness.  The officials in these towns turned a blind eye to what was going on for fear of being branded racist.  Political Correctness is an American Democratic import that pervaded the British Labour Party for decades.  Anyone who complained about immigration was branded and dismissed as a racist.  Thankfully this B*llsh*t has been discredited at last.

I guess that English is not your first language, so no-one would blame you for misunderstanding  when I referred to these Muslims as being the ones pictured, I was not referring to the Muslim world as a whole, but maybe it suited you to infer that?

PS: tens of thousands of underage boys being raped by paedophile Catholic priests, does that define Christianity?

Thank God it doesn't, but it does define the culpable doctrine of celibacy for Catholic priests.

If the Catholic Church had stuck to what is written in the Bible and not added Celibacy and banned birth control, there would be a lot less trouble in the world.  The lack of Birth Control (Not Abortion) is a major driver of mass immigration to bring us back to the topic.

DaveP

 

[Banzai]

English could be my 5th language, and I'd still understand you're just parroting UKIP's party line.

Here's a simple question: Would you refer to a group of Israeli's as "these Jews"?

"Look at these Jews."
"These Jews think they can impose their culture on us."
"I don't want these Jews in my country."

Sound reasonable, or borderline Nazi?

 

[Banzai]

Here are some statistics from https://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

– Approximately 85,000 women and 12,000 men are raped in England and Wales alone every year; that's roughly 11 rapes (of adults alone) every hour. These figures include assaults by penetration and attempts.
– Nearly half a million adults are sexually assaulted in England and Wales each year
– 1 in 5 women aged 16 - 59 has experienced some form of sexual violence since the age of 16
– Only around 15% of those who experience sexual violence choose to report to the police
– Approximately 90% of those who are raped know the perpetrator prior to the offence

11 adult rapes per hour in the UK, who knows how many children... Pretending it's 'Muslim' immigrants who have brought rape to western societies because their culture is incompatible is utter bullshit.

(for the record, I'm an agnostic who thinks all religions are evil)

 

[DaveP]

English could be my 5th language, and I'd still understand you're just parroting UKIP's party line.

As an Englishman who has made his home in France, UKIP are obviously anathema to me, that is the problem when you make assumptions about people who disagree with you.  As an immigrant myself, it would be unimaginable for me to contemplate these crimes in my adoptive host country so these people disgust me.

Here's a simple question: Would you refer to a group of Israeli's as "these Jews"?

If a group of Jews had committed the same crimes, of course I would, wouldn't you?  What difference does their nationality make?

My reasoning is that I expect high moral standards from nations that are inherently religeous, whether Pakistani or Israeli.

"Look at these Jews."
"These Jews think they can impose their culture on us."
"I don't want these Jews in my country."

Not sure where you found these quotes, but I guess they are part of your agenda.

Please don't quote irrelevant rape statistics to me, you are just trying to blur the point.  These Pakistani "Muslim" men organised rape on an industrial scale because their "culture" allowed it.  You of all people should be aware that women are treated as property in many countries, what with FGM, forced marriages and group rape, their whole culture stinks to high heaven.

DaveP

 

[Banzai]

Let's apply your reasoning to the world's #1 'Grooming Gang', the Catholic Church:
"These Catholic priests organised rape of underage boys on an industrial scale because their culture allowed it".

But that only works when it's muslims from Pakistan, since those Catholic priests are all Christians from Europe or America... These disgusting paedophiles, share YOUR culture.

If a group of Jews had committed the same crimes, of course I would, wouldn't you?  What difference does their nationality make?

I wouldn't refer to a group of Israeli's as 'these Jews'. And you have it exactly upside down: what does their religion have to do with anything? Does Islam, Christianity, or Judaism tell its followers it's okay to rape women and children??

Crazy you can't see the difference.

 

[JohnRoberts]

come on guys lets chill out...

evil is unfortunately part of human nature... all evil is bad...

JR

 

[DaveP]

Don't worry JR, Banzai is OK, I know his heart is in the right place.

Enjoy your birthday!

Over and Out.

DaveP

 

[ruffrecords]

It is an unfortunate fact of life that an awful lot of evil is committed in the name of religion. We could start at the crusades and work forward.

Cheers

Ian

 

[boji]

I recall a couple years ago a climate protester went to the south pole to document it melting and lost a couple toes to frostbite... (I can't find the story now, maybe I should google "ironic").

 

[boji]

This isn't about being PC, it's about being factual: men who kill or rape women and children, aren't religious. They're indoctrinated or sick.
--
PS: tens of thousands of underage boys being raped by paedophile Catholic priests, does that define Christianity?

There is likely a correlation. This also goes for the Catholic subculture and pedophilia.  Of course we can't say all disgraceful human acts are caused by religion, but statistically cultures that pass on the worst behavior also tend to be strict in religious or pseudo-religious observance.  Perhaps it's a sort of moral 'check valve' that cracks in the mind of the perpetrator; when a doctrine of difficult sacrifice fails to produce a life they expected.
There's a reason the story of Job remains a important part of the collective unconscious...

 

[Banzai]

That's where indoctrination fits in. Religion remains the most effective mass mind-control system:

Very easy to convince parts of a highly poor, highly uneducated, and highly illiterate population like Pakistan's, to burn people at the stake for blasphemy. They don't have the means to check whether imam tinpot speaks any truth.

Could argue it doesn't make a difference – in the west, imam tinpot is replaced by president tinpot, with pretty much identical results.

 

[boji]

That's where indoctrination fits in.

All thriving cultures use elements of indoctrination to keep them going.
But in this day and age you can't criticize a culture if you're not of that culture.  Eventually this also can create responses that are totalitarian in ideas and scope.

 

[living sounds]

Interesting thoughts. I've wondered about this too. That stuff in LA (state)  is crazy. I sometimes wonder if some of these freaks are just that and maybe felt like this profession would suit them.....

Now that would be some serious evil.  You'd think that they could go find a more socially acceptable form of breaking moral codes as it relates to religion vs normal, instead of breaking ones that are  unacceptable to society, depending on where you live in some instances ... it's all the same........ but a prostitute or some other guy's wife (or partner) will keep you in society's grace in some respect at least....

Pedophiles are attracted by professions that allow them access to children from a position of power/respect, with plenty ofopportunities to live out their drive and even avert detection. A person not attracted to adults doesn't have to pretend anything because of celebacy.

"Breaking moral codes"... why would that be? Pedophilia is disadventagous from an evolutionary standpoint, so disgust to it is probably the genetical norm.

The above explanation is the easiest one and thus has the highest probability of being correct: Pedophiles self-select for a job position that best allows them to be pedophiles.  Getting rid of celebacy and increasing control would thus reduce the problem in the church, but not the problem overall.