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joaquins

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Messages
1,927
Location
Argentina
I've just read about another musician gone in my country for a missing safety breaker, not so long ago I read a similar thing here, also in Argentina. It's a shame this keeps happening, just wanted to share.

I keep saying electricity distributors should pay as much attention as gas companies in safety rules, I've seen and heard about so many buildings without gas for a few month because a bad procedure or something. Not even once something like that with an electric co. Once you got your connection do whatever you want. So many things to correct here, but someone saying a live doesn't worth U$100 seems too much for me.

JS
 
I am very much interested in mains power safety.

I have designed an outlet tester that actually works. The cheap hardware store outlet tester does not detect RPBG (reverse polarity bootleg ground).

Another approach that could prevent musician deaths/injury is use of a GFCI power drop with series cap instead of hard ground path, That way an external voltage hazard would be current limited by the cap to sub-lethal amounts (less than 10 mA).

I would be curious to hear more detail of the incident, they never revealed the true cause of that other death.

JR
 
I haven't seen anything about the other case being solved, this was pretty quickly, less than a week, they found the mains breaker replaced by a brand new thermoelectric, which indicates something was done wrong short time ago. They can probably find who did that but I doubt it ends in something serious for the responsable, probably not much more than a ticket for the place and a few days out of business for the investigation.

JS
 
In the US we can buy end-use GFI devices, for bathroom outlets and also in power-strips for construction sites.

If musicians cared, they could get a carpenter's power strip(s) and power ALL their on-stage gear there.

I found "RCD" cords for Argentina:
http://worldcordsets.com/products-mainmenu-64?page=shop.browse&category_id=311

What you really want to find is a full power-strip such as (US version):
http://www.tripplite.com/safety-heavy-duty-power-strip-8-outlets-25-ft-cord-gfci-plug-integrated-cord-wrap~TLM825GF/
This one *appears* to have the GFI/RCB at the wall end of the cord. Good in construction where the cord gets a lot of abuse (grab the frayed spot and the GFI trips). We also have wall-plug GFIs on all hair-dryers and some other products. If you do too, dead hair-dryers can be found cheap/free and adapted (carefully!!) to a standard power strip.
 
Is your bigger plug really from Australia??  http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?id=27391

OH! "Argentina uses a similar plug, with pins 1 mm longer, but with the Active and Neutral connections reversed." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AS/NZS_3112

This series is based-on a US design from 1916, which had small popularity and then vanished in the US. (A larger form was our standard stove connector for decades.) So from US to Australia (+friends) to Argentina (and Brazil) (also China). It seems that every area who adopted it did it a little different. H/N swap, mm longer, ground up or down.....

A US journal from 1915 describing the Argentine electric situation (ripe for US exploitation).
https://books.google.com/books?id=-0I_AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA125&lpg=PA125&dq=argentina+electric+code
 
PRR said:
In the US we can buy end-use GFI devices, for bathroom outlets and also in power-strips for construction sites.

If musicians cared, they could get a carpenter's power strip(s) and power ALL their on-stage gear there.
A gfci power drop will protect against a rouge amp or back line stage power, but if the back line power is actually grounded and the console is plugged into a miswired (ground hot) outlet, the microphone body ground coming from the console could be mains voltage hot wrt the back line ground,  A 0.15uF cap in series with the GFCI ground will keep current from such ground1 to ground2 mains voltage shocks to < 10mA so humans will not get stuck and injured. 

JR
I found "RCD" cords for Argentina:
http://worldcordsets.com/products-mainmenu-64?page=shop.browse&category_id=311

What you really want to find is a full power-strip such as (US version):
http://www.tripplite.com/safety-heavy-duty-power-strip-8-outlets-25-ft-cord-gfci-plug-integrated-cord-wrap~TLM825GF/
This one *appears* to have the GFI/RCB at the wall end of the cord. Good in construction where the cord gets a lot of abuse (grab the frayed spot and the GFI trips). We also have wall-plug GFIs on all hair-dryers and some other products. If you do too, dead hair-dryers can be found cheap/free and adapted (carefully!!) to a standard power strip.
 
I don't know why stage mikes are still metal.

When was the last time you saw a metal-case power drill? SkilSaw? Angle grinder?

(Yes, I have 2 of 3 of those in my garage, but the grinder is known to throw shocks and I use it with care.)

Mikes could be plastic-clad; or with some modern plastics, totally insulated.

They could instead be double-insulated, with an internal metal shield, fishpaper, and then a decorative outer metal shell.
 
PRR said:
I don't know why stage mikes are still metal.
Probably because musicians wouldn't buy plastic mics.

I have given this a lot of thought and the mic is not the easiest place to address this (tens of mics and only one guitar). IMO Guitar/amp/backline is easier. While I've never heard of a musician shocked by a wireless mic.  ;D

In fact my stinger cap ground could be built into the guitar effectively current limiting the shock hazard there, but again many musicians don't want to mess around inside their axe, especially if it is a classic.
When was the last time you saw a metal-case power drill? SkilSaw? Angle grinder?

(Yes, I have 2 of 3 of those in my garage, but the grinder is known to throw shocks and I use it with care.)

Mikes could be plastic-clad; or with some modern plastics, totally insulated.

They could instead be double-insulated, with an internal metal shield, fishpaper, and then a decorative outer metal shell.
true but people are unlikely to choose a mic just because the handle is insulated..

Musicians don't seem to be very motivated about this, especially those who have survived minor shocks.

I do not want to overstate the severity of this, while it can kill people I only know a handful of cases where deaths resulted.

JR
 
I don't sing and check the outlet before plugging my amp in places I don't know. Many musicians understand nothing about electricity, and their lives shouldn't depend on that. Is quite easy for a musician that knows about electricity not to get killed, the problem is the other 98%

The danger is not only for musicians, I'm talking in much wider audience of potential accidents, if the companies doesn't require a certain level of safety at the end in many places there won't be safety at all. The end user only care if they can charge their phone and watch tv, and many professionals will only care if their customers are happy, not safe.

JS
 
Yup, experienced musicians touch the guitar to the mic to see if it sparks before grabbing it.

As i've shared before the standard outlet testers only check that ground is connected to something and can be fooled by reverse polarity bootleg ground. Unless you have an external reference ground simple VOM testing won't ID a bad outlet, while VOM readings between the different grounds will definitely ID problems.

JR
 
Oh, I just use a DMM, see if there's mains referred to ground, check ground and mains against myself to check it isn't reversed.

I touch things potentially dangerous with the wrong side of my hand before grabbing it, if it's dangerous it will take my hand away instead of killing me. I'm not worried about me dying in such an accident, this usual safety precautions are fine for people that knows something about it. That kind of precautions shouldn't be necessary for every day survival, good luck for us Darwin will pick us every day, in a few centuries everybody will know about electricity.

JS
 
joaquins said:
Oh, I just use a DMM, see if there's mains referred to ground, check ground and mains against myself to check it isn't reversed.
Just to be clear, are you talking about touching the - probe with fingers of one hand, while probing the outlet with the + probe?  If yes I add the caution, be sure you are in AC volts scale, since current range could expose you to the mains voltage.
I touch things potentially dangerous with the wrong side of my hand before grabbing it, if it's dangerous it will take my hand away instead of killing me. I'm not worried about me dying in such an accident, this usual safety precautions are fine for people that knows something about it. That kind of precautions shouldn't be necessary for every day survival, good luck for us Darwin will pick us every day, in a few centuries everybody will know about electricity.

JS
Yes any muscular contraction won't cause the back of your hand to clamp on to anything. Good strategy. If there is voltage you can feel it without getting stuck to it.

JR
 
JohnRoberts said:
joaquins said:
Oh, I just use a DMM, see if there's mains referred to ground, check ground and mains against myself to check it isn't reversed.
Just to be clear, are you talking about touching the - probe with fingers of one hand, while probing the outlet with the + probe?  If yes I add the caution, be sure you are in AC volts scale, since current range could expose you to the mains voltage.

I do it after testing the mains directly, if I messed I've already blown the fuse  :mad:

I touch things potentially dangerous with the wrong side of my hand before grabbing it, if it's dangerous it will take my hand away instead of killing me. I'm not worried about me dying in such an accident, this usual safety precautions are fine for people that knows something about it. That kind of precautions shouldn't be necessary for every day survival, good luck for us Darwin will pick us every day, in a few centuries everybody will know about electricity.

JS
Yes any muscular contraction won't cause the back of your hand to clamp on to anything. Good strategy. If there is voltage you can feel it without getting stuck to it.

JR
[/quote]

We where talking something like this with a friend who works with industrial wiring and such. He was in my kitchen getting something to drink, while he was opening the fridge I told him it was wired correctly since I've check it myself when I move in, I reinstall all new sockets except a few, which I did test. He told me, "anyway, I'm with rubber shoes" but he was grabbing the water knob while opening the fridge. Nothing happened, of course, the wiring was fine, but even people with knowledge forget small details. For us I think it's more about paying attention than anything else, at least until you get used to do this kind of things.

JS
 
> he was grabbing the water knob while opening the fridge.

In my childhood, that would be risky.

Interestingly, in *this* now re-plumbed house, the water knobs are pretty safe. All plastic (and the water isn't conductive). Supply *and* drains.

The real idea was to replace a lot of crappy solder-joints in copper lines. But my solder skills do not cover plumbing. And PEX plastic plumbing has real advantage in retro-fit.

The drains here were always plastic, but I sure remember a mix of copper, iron, steel, and *lead* in the old house. (It even had a lead supply line, but not connected in decades.)
 
personally, i think copper pipes are nice in as much as the antibacterial properties of copper
can lead to somewhat safer water coming out of your tap. .

who ever came up with the idea of clamping electrical ground to your metal water pipes
should have won a darwin award himself.
 
I've never been a fan of lead based solder for plumbing, but modern solders are lead free... I had a steel water main between my meter and house, spring a leak a couple years ago, I am happy to now have a plastic water feed, while IIRC the plumber added some copper at the junction where it meets the house.

I just looked at one study that supports copper for being slightly anti-microbal but the study was a liitle confusing, since that study called 100'C water cool and 200'C water warm.  ;D ;D ;D (200'C water is steam  8)  ).  Apparently they meant F not C.

JR
 
Most people in construction myself included hate the new GFCI's because they constantly trip just trying to use your tools. It makes it hard to get anything done.
 
> the idea of clamping electrical ground to your metal water pipes

Underground metal pipes ARE grounded.

100 years ago there was the idea that electric power should "float".

It is easy to prove in a lab that you can grab either side of a floating electric circuit while standing on ground (or touching the sink), no shock.

Problem (as experienced electric techs knew) is that a real-world electric circuit *always* has grounds. Transformers leak, and in a large system the leakage is non-negligible. Trees grow into the wires. While you grab a sink and one side of the line, someone else is grabbing the other side of the line.

There's also lightning, which in the end virtually mandates redundant to-dirt bonds to limit damage in a lightning hit. (Even for underground wires, because they connect to wires up in buildings.)

In many places the power company is responsible for supplying a good ground. Even so, I know that in the UK the installer is also supposed to bond to the water entrance.

In the US the power company feed is grounded but we do not rely on it. Service entrances must have their own to-dirt bonding. When water lines were always metal this was an excellent Ground; also an electric-water bond ensures that the then most popular shock (to kitchen sink) is as mild as possible: either zero or 110V, not stray leakage to high voltage.

Yes, there have been decades of back-and-forth bickerings between the water and power interests. Bad connections kill water technicians. However bad grounding can harm many more non-technical non-employee people, and water-techs can be trained to jumper-around where they are working, so bonding to water entrance is generally accepted.

Which is becoming moot now that much water piping is plastic. At the old house I faithfully bonded my inside copper pipes to the city-water entrance. Then I learned that the "new" (1980s) line from the street was all plastic except the foot where it went through the foundation. Not a good ground, though just enough to pass a fatal shock.

Bonding to gas pipe is more debatable. Nevermind the dead gas-techs, heavy current in a gas pipe "could" blow-up the whole neighborhood! Most gas associations permit it, most gas-techs do not want it; but the last guy who yelled at me, it turned out the gas line was all plastic. The only bond between gas and electric was the thin flex-hose to the boiler, and that would be a bad place for an electrical fault. Better to have any electric leak through a #8 at the entrance.

Where known-metal underground pipe is not available, NEC suggests one dirt-rod tested, two dirt-rods un-tested, large buried plate, buried wire around the structure, or electrode in concrete foundation or slab. Even where hardly-effective (my thin dirt on rock), there's no reason NOT to dirt-bond ALL touchable metal in the house.
 
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