Alec Baldwin

[cyrano]

Live fire for foley and ground effects still beats CGI in some cases. Same with rotoscoping for some things. Imagine nowadays with CGI they can do a lot without actors present, as a layer in post.

I'd suspected there were fringe cases where a real gun would do better. Like Kubrick used custom built light amplifying lenses for Barry Lyndon to be able to shoot with real candles as the only light source.

There could be an exemption for rare cases. Doesn't break the rule.

BTW, what's "rotoscoping". A search gave me an impression, but not a real definition. It also turned up a Flickr page with the tag "small penis" as fifth result on the first page.
It seems to have very little to do with sound, but everything with video.

Blaming the idiots isn't a solution. These are the first people you should take into account. If you don't, you belong to the same group.

I'm currently consulting about garden tools (chainsaws, lawn mowers...) in a medium size govt operation. The damage they do is considerable. The very first analysis showed it was always the same workers, in the same circumstances. So the solution was very simple: give those who don't cause accidents a certificate and prevent the others from working with these dangerous tools. I also added nobody should work with these motorised tools in the rain, as almost 90% of the accidents happened in, or just after rainy weather. It's far too soon to draw results, but after a year, only one accident was reported. And that was caused by a certificate-less worker, just by starting the chainsaw.

Of course, you need a carrot to guide the donkey. There's a monthly bonus for certificate holders. If the workers don't follow safety rules, they loose that certificate and the attached bonus.

Accidents with those kind of tools cost the insurance over a million a year, rising the price of the policy on a yearly basis. Nobody ever got killed, but about a dozen a year went to hospital in a workforce of about a hundred.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I saw a gunfire scene in a movie just last night where the muzzle flash was missing from one of the middle shots in a series of quick firing... Now it wasn't a serious movie (the Mask with Jim Carey)... As I recall nobody was shot and killed on that set.

JR

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'd suspected there were fringe cases where a real gun would do better. Like Kubrick used custom built light amplifying lenses for Barry Lyndon to be able to shoot with real candles as the only light source.

There could be an exemption for rare cases. Doesn't break the rule.

BTW, what's "rotoscoping". A search gave me an impression, but not a real definition. It also turned up a Flickr page with the tag "small penis" as fifth result on the first page.
It seems to have very little to do with sound, but everything with video.

Blaming the idiots isn't a solution. These are the first people you should take into account. If you don't, you belong to the same group.

blaming people responsible is pretty routine.

I'm currently consulting about garden tools (chainsaws, lawn mowers...) in a medium size govt operation. The damage they do is considerable. The very first analysis showed it was always the same workers, in the same circumstances.

Can't kill themselves twice. If they don't learn from touching the hot stove the first time they may be incorrigible. Or do you mean the same kind of uneducated, untrained people? If the same one person repeatedly has accidents you would be doing him a favor by firing him (or her).

I recall as a child having a school friend with a younger brother who cut off the tip of his finger with a running lawnmower blade. It was odd his finger nail grew back on the bottom side of his finger. Decades later while working at peavey I learned about a dealer who died after his riding lawn mower tipped over on him. It seems like common sense to have respect for power cutting tools, but common sense is not all that common as you have found.

Modern power tools are safer. I have made a lot of sawdust with my recent Stihl chainsaw and I love it. It has an anti kickback design and a safety blade brake. Much safer than my old POS chainsaw it replaced. My biggest concern now is getting the big trees to fall in the desired direction. Modern lawnmowers have safety cut offs you have to work to defeat.

So the solution was very simple: give those who don't cause accidents a certificate and prevent the others from working with these dangerous tools. I also added nobody should work with these motorised tools in the rain, as almost 90% of the accidents happened in, or just after rainy weather. It's far too soon to draw results, but after a year, only one accident was reported. And that was caused by a certificate-less worker, just by starting the chainsaw.

Do supervisors put them to work in the rain?

Of course, you need a carrot to guide the donkey. There's a monthly bonus for certificate holders. If the workers don't follow safety rules, they loose that certificate and the attached bonus.

I hear that some US cities are experimenting with paying criminals to not commit crimes. That seems a little perverted but when spending money is the goto hammer in your toolbox every problem looks like a "throw money at it" nail.

If your policy of rewarding safe workers reduces your insurance bill that sounds like an economical win-win... good job.

Accidents with those kind of tools cost the insurance over a million a year, rising the price of the policy on a yearly basis. Nobody ever got killed, but about a dozen a year went to hospital in a workforce of about a hundred.

worker safety is important and we must be alert to perverse incentives. Back in the 60s I had a coop job working as a QC inspector in a heavy metal factory. They did a lot of small piece work using cut off saws. There were always a couple of old workers around missing the odd finger from cutoff accidents. Even using machinery with two hand safety buttons (machine doesn't work unless both hands are on a button), they would figure out ways to cheat the machine safeties, like resting an elbow on one button to regain use of that hand to guide in parts faster. I blame that they were paid piece work (by the number they cut) making them highly motivated to work faster than was safe. I don't think they were paying piece work at that factory in the 60s. The workers probably got injured decades earlier at other workplaces. I was not aware of any accidents while I was working there but heard stories. They also had huge presses for compressing powdered metal into shapes before sintering (cooking to bind the metal together). Those presses were reportedly finger eaters but all had the two button safeties.
===

Perhaps all the publicity surrounding this high profile movie set shooting will bring some awareness to the blatant safety deficiencies involved. I can imagine some scriptwriters already working on a movie about it. Maybe Alec can play himself, he would be perfect for that part. It is ironic that the movie "Rust" is reportedly about an "accidental" shooting death.

JR

 

[cyrano]

blaming people responsible is pretty routine.

Can't kill themselves twice. If they don't learn from touching the hot stove the first time they may be incorrigible. Or do you mean the same kind of uneducated, untrained people? If the same one person repeatedly has accidents you would be doing him a favor by firing him (or her).

Firing people is not a solution. This kind of job is hard to fill and new workers aren't necessarily better.

I recall as a child having a school friend with a younger brother who cut off the tip of his finger with a running lawnmower blade. It was odd his finger nail grew back on the bottom side of his finger. Decades later while working at peavey I learned about a dealer who died after his riding lawn mower tipped over on him. It seems like common sense to have respect for power cutting tools, but common sense is not all that common as you have found.

Modern power tools are safer. I have made a lot of sawdust with my recent Stihl chainsaw and I love it. It has an anti kickback design and a safety blade brake. Much safer than my old POS chainsaw it replaced. My biggest concern now is getting the big trees to fall in the desired direction. Modern lawnmowers have safety cut offs you have to work to defeat.

Do supervisors put them to work in the rain?

Rain is relative. If it's pouring, work is of course halted. But you can't wait for everything to dry out. Nor is work halted if there's a little drizzle.

These guys also work when it's cold, or hot. We don't have many days in a year with extreme temperatures. If it's -10°C there isn't much to do either, except throwing salt on pathways.

I hear that some US cities are experimenting with paying criminals to not commit crimes. That seems a little perverted but when spending money is the goto hammer in your toolbox every problem looks like a "throw money at it" nail.

If your policy of rewarding safe workers reduces your insurance bill that sounds like an economical win-win... good job.

The million I cited includes all injuries and work related sickness. But the largest part of the cost is injuries and damage related to machines. One worker succeeded in burning down a wooden garage door before noon and about 50 m of hedge in the afternoon. He's 60 and has been with the govt since he was fourteen.

Some of these men simply have no chance at finding another job. Some are put to work as a community task (alternative punishment). They're only working for a few weeks, or months. If the sentence is longer, they go to jail. Firing is not an option in my mind, because that gets them in jail. They're first time offenders guilty of minor crime.

worker safety is important and we must be alert to perverse incentives. Back in the 60s I had a coop job working as a QC inspector in a heavy metal factory. They did a lot of small piece work using cut off saws. There were always a couple of old workers around missing the odd finger from cutoff accidents. Even using machinery with two hand safety buttons (machine doesn't work unless both hands are on a button), they would figure out ways to cheat the machine safeties, like resting an elbow on one button to regain use of that hand to guide in parts faster. I blame that they were paid piece work (by the number they cut) making them highly motivated to work faster than was safe. I don't think they were paying piece work at that factory in the 60s. The workers probably got injured decades earlier at other workplaces. I was not aware of any accidents while I was working there but heard stories. They also had huge presses for compressing powdered metal into shapes before sintering (cooking to bind the metal together). Those presses were reportedly finger eaters but all had the two button safeties.
===

Perhaps all the publicity surrounding this high profile movie set shooting will bring some awareness to the blatant safety deficiencies involved. I can imagine some scriptwriters already working on a movie about it. Maybe Alec can play himself, he would be perfect for that part. It is ironic that the movie "Rust" is reportedly about an "accidental" shooting death.

JR

Another reason why some might think it's all a setup?

 

[boji]

https://www.google.com/search?q=rotoscoping

 

[Brian Roth]

A "relatively recent" video using rotoscope:



Bri

 

[cyrano]

Thanks, Boji and Brian.

I forgot the name for that technique, even when I came across it years ago, when researching Disney. But what's the problem with rotoscoping and guns?

 

[JohnRoberts]

Alec Baldwin is reportedly saying that his finger was never in the trigger guard and he didn't pull the trigger. It has alternately been described as a misfire, and/or freak accident. I don't think that is what misfire means.

Sounds like a script re-write... "the gun did it".

JR

 

[pucho812]

Alec Baldwin is reportedly saying that his finger was never in the trigger guard and he didn't pull the trigger. It has alternately been described as a misfire, and/or freak accident. I don't think that is what misfire means.

Sounds like a script re-write... "the gun did it".

JR

Misfire: failure to discharge or fire properly
Failure of a gun or missile to fire correctly or of fuel in an internal combustion engine to ignite.

I have had misfires with poorly made ammo before. It didn’t go, fire when the trigger was pulled.

I don’t expect Alec to understand the mechanics of how a revolver works, but in a working revolver in order for it to fire without pulling the trigger, you either dropped it causing the hammer to strike the bullet and start the chain of events that is firing a bullet or you're lying. Single action revolvers(pull the hammer back till it locks in place then pull trigger to fire) are not complex, neither are double action( pull trigger to fire or pull hammer back till it locks in place and then pull trigger to fire). But to have the hammer strike a bullet without pulling the trigger, is nearly impossible. Then if it did happen, the hammer would have to be far enough to have enough force to cause the bullet to shoot. So the hammer would have had to have been cocked back as if you were going to fire.

so if we buy the idea he didn’t pull the trigger, that still doesn’t explain why the hammer would be in the locked ready to fire position, how the hammer went from locked ready position to actually moving/firing, and why he would have been pointing it at people.

 

[crazydoc]

Maybe the gun was already cocked to fire in the upcoming scene.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Since the report I read was a she said-he said so probably a little garbled.

Bullets rarely fire by themselves. Misfires generally describe when they "don't" fire properly.

That said antique weapons could have a dodgy worn trigger mechanism that could misbehave. Leaving a loaded weapon cocked is even more problematic, than having live loads on a film set.

It still looks to me like an attempt to rewrite the script for reality.

I am actually sorry that this happened even to Baldwin and especially the woman killed. There is a lot of blame to go around and it looks unseemly to try to blame the gun for firing itself. It seems common practice these days to blame things instead of (some) people. Like the "car" that killed several people at that parade.

Sorry about stirring this pot, I just thought it was remarkable to accuse the gun of firing itself.

JR

 

[pucho812]

Maybe the gun was already cocked to fire in the upcoming scene.

o.k. lets say that it was cocked and ready to fire. That doesn't explain how it went off. there are mechanisms that prevent that. to get it to fire you would have to pull the trigger or there would have to be some event outside of that such as dropping the gun which is not 100% it will fire or the very slim possibility of mechanical failure at that moment. Even then if those events took place, how do you explain actually hitting people?
Say the gun was dropped and it managed to go off, the chances of hitting a person in a fatal shot are very very low let alone just hitting someone. Say there was at that precise moment, a mechanical failure causing the hammer to strike the bullet. Again hitting someone in any capacity would be difficult unless you had the gun pointed at them.
You really gotta have the gun pointing towards your target in order to come close to hitting it.

in my over 40 years of being around firearms, I have never had a gun accidentally go off just because it was being held.

 

[Tubetec]

They reported it along the lines of 'the gun fired off a bullet ' on the news here , didnt sound right to me at all .

 

[crazydoc]

I have no experience with pistols, only automatic rifles.

I'd imagine he was pointing the gun at her (which he should never have done) in play, and it went off. My understanding is that a revolver can't be fired or decocked without pulling the trigger (or an obvious external blow), so it's a very strange story.

It was loaded with a live round, a low probability occurrence, and if there was a mechanical failure rather than a trigger pull, even lower probability, it's near impossible to believe it went off without a finger on the trigger.

 

[pucho812]

I have no experience with pistols, only automatic rifles.

I'd imagine he was pointing the gun at her (which he should never have done) in play, and it went off. My understanding is that a revolver can't be fired or decocked without pulling the trigger (or an obvious external blow), so it's a very strange story.

It was loaded with a live round, a low probability occurrence, and if there was a mechanical failure rather than a trigger pull, even lower probability, it's near impossible to believe it went off without a finger on the trigger.

I have lots of experience with pistols in particular revolvers both single and double action. correct you cannot decock a revolver unless you pull the trigger or an external blow, but even an external blow may not decock it and an external blow would be a rare occurrence. to properly decock a revolver one would/should have their thumb on the hammer that way when the mechanism lets it loose, you can gently ease it to an uncock position without setting off any firearm.
I agree it is near impossible to have it go off without pulling the trigger and I also agree that even if it did happen like he said, he should have never been pointing the firearm at her.

 

[JohnRoberts]

I keep a half full clip in my 9mm personal protection device but I don't have a bullet chambered, so I would need to cock it and chamber a round before it would be capable of firing. That said I really don't plan to use it any time soon around the house, hope I never have to. I am content to smoke squirrels in the yard eating my pecans with my .177 air rifle.
===
The movie set shooting story didn't completely add up before, now it takes this bizarre turn (the hand gun fired itself).

I wish them all well. At the minimum they have to live with what they know they did. It is becoming unclear if they know or believe what they did.

JR

PS: reportedly the "prop"(?) gun was a single action revolver...

Pietta 1873 45 Long Colt Single Action Revolver​

 

[boji]

Sounds like A.B. & crew, on the advice of their attorneys are negotiating. Signaling to prosecution that charges of criminal negligence will be fought over.

 

[pucho812]

I keep a half full clip in my 9mm personal protection device but I don't have a bullet chambered, so I would need to cock it and chamber a round before it would be capable of firing. That said I really don't plan to use it any time soon around the house, hope I never have to. I am content to smoke squirrels in the yard eating my pecans with my .177 air rifle.
===
The movie set shooting story didn't completely add up before, now it takes this bizarre turn (the hand gun fired itself).

I wish them all well. At the minimum they have to live with what they know they did. It is becoming unclear if they know or believe what they did.

JR

PS: reportedly the "prop"(?) gun was a single action revolver...

Pietta 1873 45 Long Colt Single Action Revolver​

based on caliber and mention of clip I am going to say 9mm is not a revolver. But they do make them so I could be wrong. You would have to chamber a round which in turn would cock the mater back at the same time to ready to fire. completely different than a single action revolver but you would decock it the same way, using your thump to slowly put the hammer back to uncock and not fire the bullet. Growing up in the country, it was common to have a small .22 caliber pistol with rat shot(like a shotgun shell with bird shot but in a .22 caliber). This was for poisonous snakes and other small dangers. Everyday it was on person while out in the pastures of the farm, would count number of bullets in clip as it was loaded, and count number of bullets as it was unloaded. they better match and if not better have reason and the shell casing if possible. that was one of many safety checks. How is it my kid brain and family had more Safety checks than this movie set?

not completely off topic but in an unrelated gun incident, I was sent video of what I believe to be an Iranian man. Definitely middle eastern(based on music and dress) He was at a party. Music is blaring, hard to tell if it is farsi or arabic lyrics. The man has in his hands a colt 1911 or similar style model of pistol. He proceeds to pull back the slide which chambers a round and cocks the hammer. From there what is best describe as an act of stupidity and disregard of any gun safety, he fires a round into the air. He next hits the clip release dropping the guns magazine on the floor. Now already firing a gun randomly into the air is asking for trouble and is a big disregard of gun safety, but that's not the most troubling part of the video. after the clip has hit the floor. He shoves his other hand in front of the guns barrel and proceeds to fire the gun again. obviously he shoots through the hand he has in front of the barrel. My only thoughts aside from him doing something completely stupid, was that he either wasn't thinking that a round would automatically chamber and be ready to fire, or that he miscounted the number of bullets he had in his magazine/clip.

 

[JohnRoberts]

based on caliber and mention of clip I am going to say 9mm is not a revolver. But they do make them so I could be wrong. You would have to chamber a round which in turn would cock the mater back at the same time to ready to fire. completely different than a single action revolver but you would decock it the same way, using your thump to slowly put the hammer back to uncock and not fire the bullet.

yup

Growing up in the country, it was common to have a small .22 caliber pistol with rat shot(like a shotgun shell with bird shot but in a .22 caliber). This was for poisonous snakes and other small dangers. Everyday it was on person while out in the pastures of the farm, would count number of bullets in clip as it was loaded, and count number of bullets as it was unloaded. they better match and if not better have reason and the shell casing if possible. that was one of many safety checks. How is it my kid brain and family had more Safety checks than this movie set?

as a kid growing up in northern NJ with a red neck farm girl mama... we had a .22 rifle by the kitchen door for varmint clearance.

not completely off topic but in an unrelated gun incident, I was sent video of what I believe to be an Iranian man. Definitely middle eastern(based on music and dress) He was at a party. Music is blaring, hard to tell if it is farsi or arabic lyrics. The man has in his hands a colt 1911 or similar style model of pistol. He proceeds to pull back the slide which chambers a round and cocks the hammer. From there what is best describe as an act of stupidity and disregard of any gun safety, he fires a round into the air. He next hits the clip release dropping the guns magazine on the floor. Now already firing a gun randomly into the air is asking for trouble and is a big disregard of gun safety, but that's not the most troubling part of the video. after the clip has hit the floor. He shoves his other hand in front of the guns barrel and proceeds to fire the gun again. obviously he shoots through the hand he has in front of the barrel. My only thoughts aside from him doing something completely stupid, was that he either wasn't thinking that a round would automatically chamber and be ready to fire, or that he miscounted the number of bullets he had in his magazine/clip.

natural selection...

always must clear the hand gun,,, semi autos routinely chamber the next round.

JR

 

[Tubetec]

You know the old saying ,guns dont kill people , its a perfectly inanimate object in and of itself.
Sounds like the players involved have had time to put their story together now , death by missadventure?
Im happy to have never discharged a weapon in my life , nor loaded or unloaded a chamber , seen plenty of the cunting things though ,on visits and tours of military bases with my dad way back . F*&^K that for a game of soldiers .