All members of The Lab read this plz

[Underthebigtree]

Another vote for a registered forum. Internet newsgroups are regularly joined by members who have to be added by the moderator. It is not a perfect system, but it does create a gate to keep out those who don't even care enough to register.

I learn so much from this forum, and have such a great time building wonderful DIY gear for my studio, that I would consider it a huge drag to have the free-flowing information impeded by people worried about others stealing their ideas.

This whole thing is a non-profit. The spirit is non-profit. People building stuff should be doing it for themselves and/or their friends, in the non-profit pursuits of art and knowledge. If registering so that there is some level of accountability is the price to pay for this wonderful resource, so be it.

Just my $.02.

 

[Bluzzi]

I would prefer to keep it open. I think we are over-reacting to that eBay poster selling the G9.

What maybe should be done is to have some rules pertaining to the use of the schematics etc. That would make it very clear for anyone what th eintent of the material is along with a warning of any misuse or misrepresentation.

I just think there is a "spirit" here of great generosity. Don't let one fool's error domino into many here.

Maybe have a section for pictures, drawings, schematics ect and that section would be only members access. So anyone could still browse. I for one browsed a few times in the old DIY until I was sure I wanted to spend a more permanent time here.

Registering right away may turn away some people that want to be sure before doing that.

just my 0.02 worth.

jim

 

[peterc]

I vote for a closed forum.

After what's happened to the Synth DIY list & the Guitar pedal community, I think a little security would be a good thing.

Peter

 

[MikoKensington]

I have no issues with a closed forum. Can I come?

 

[thermionic]

I haven't voted yet. Even though I guess I'm for a registered forum (if Ethan can track IPs and keep out riff-raff that's got to be a good thing), there is one concern a registed-only forum *could* have: logging in every time you visit could be seen as a hassle for some people with little time on their hands - when the old TT forum was registered users only I sent links to one or two pro designers and they seemed to reckon it was a drag signing up just to read; an open forum gives people the chance to see if they like the vibe of the place without going through the hassle of a sign-up. Maybe it's a pedantic concern...

Although the G9 auction was pretty immoral, I can't see anyone getting rich selling diy projects off (if you have friends at "boutique" oems you'll appreciate that they have a hard enough time staying afloat, let alone someone making one-offs in a shed). My biggest concern would be an established oem getting hacked off with someone selling "clones" on ebay, and taking legal steps which would probably not be successful (reverse-engineered schems etc), but would cause Ethan, Chae or Jakob a lot of hassle they can do without...

Maybe I'm over cautious on the last point, but I'd really hate to log-in one day and read that one of our sponsors has received a letter from a city law firm, that's all, it really is a hassle you don't need...

Regards,
Justin

 

[jameshspencer3]

im all for a closed forum. If you want to be a part of the group, how hard is it to read a few paragraphs and then fill out a form or 2?? a few seconds of inconvienance is definatly worth the reward IMHO!

 

[Aharon]

I always wonder when people buy 10 PCBs,where do the other 9 or 8 go to? :wink:
Aharon

 

[Aharon]

[quote author="Aharon"]I always wonder when people buy 10 PCBs,where do the other 9 or 8 go to? [/quote]

Never build anything for a friend or ordered something together with a friend to save on postage?[/quote]




True......
Aharon

 

[bluebird]

Hmmmm, this is a tough one. I'm usually one to lean on the side of open and free as possible. I do think fear is getting the best of us. we have to be careful and not let what happened on tech talk happen here. Power will ultimately corrupt?

its weird my fiancé is sitting here going "it should be a closed forum, there's enough cool people on there already"

I'm like huh? I guess I spend so much time on this forum that it actually has become something that everyone who knows me knows about this weird forum I love... and the weird people I talk about... as if its this bizarre story being played out in my head...

"So what's going on at your forum today Ian?"

I guess you should want to protect the things you love the best you can.

BUT will someone making money from one of these projects really hurt any of us? or will it just make us jealous? So what if someone gets rich? What direct effect does that have on us? Besides its nearly impossible to make any money at this stuff unless you are willing to dedicate all you are to it and start a real business. Just ask sceneria.

I'm not saying taking designs from here and trying to turn a buck is right. just how much does it really effect us? and how much of a buck will really get turned in the end?

either way is fine with me...I may lean a little bit to the open side though.

Ian

P.S.
I'm also aware that I don't really contribute much to the design aspect of things here so the weight of my opinion is pretty light so to speak. I think the design people should ultimatly decide what to do.

 

[Peter Simonsen]

Hmmm This is indeed a tough one for some people more than others..

One thing I would like to know is where do people draw the line...when is it non-profit and when is it not..??? I have been in the debate about this here in the past soo my view should be know on this.

I mean to be honest and this surely should come as no surprice to anyone I think the conman is just trying to con the conman..

I how many members here has build something like the SSL clone..??? That is not "our" design gentlemen..yes jakob did the pcb layout, but who did the design..??? I can as a "me´mber" of this non-profit forum make 10 SSL clones for my own use...I´d make money doing this using them in the studio every day..and SSL will loose the sale of 10 outboard SSL compressors to me...but hey..who cares..i build it as one of the "non-profit" items right..???

How many outboard SSL compressors has been build here..how much money has SSL lost on that..???..Nothing..!!! many would say..`caurse "we" would not have bourght them at "their" price anyway isnt that so...???

Another thing..we can make this forum, or another for registeret members only..but hey...we all know the word on the streets (or the net)..it will not take much for anybody to register under false name etc..if one wanted to...I mean how many "undercover", "funky" screen names are here now..??? how many here are using their real name..???

I´m all for a open forum..I have nothing to hide and play with open cards
you dont want other to make a profit on something you "design or build..but you wanna make profit on other people´s design´s..`caurse wther you like it or not..somebody is loosing money on missing sales when ever you clone someting, and you use it to make money in the studio or elsewhere you work with audio...or maybe some of your friend will...you cant hide the fact that somebody is loosing money on what you do..then what you do..is not .."Non profit"...its profit :wink:

Kind regards

Peter

 

[soundguy]

I like the idea of a closed forum, but I honestly dont think that is going to do too much to stop an ******* from being an *******, it just requires an extra step. If we went with a closed forum, there would need to be either a public forum or some kind of front page detailing what is being discussed otherwise new members wont reallly have the motivation to sign up. Thats what I would think anyway. As part of the membership TOS, you could put in there all info used for noncommercial purposes, etc. but it still comes down to having to enforce it which I think is outside the realm of anything we are capable of handling if someone was determined to be a *******.

I love the AES sketch book image, I can totally relate to that. I used to post quite a bit on another board in great detail on stuff I have spent a lifetime learning in a studio and some of the exchanges I had with people would just never happen in person in a professional situation. Needless to say, I dont post there anymore, who the **** has time for **** like that, I already graduated from high school once. With a closed forum its at least a STEP in the right direction towards keeping the designers who participate freely here positive about sharing their design ideas with a bunch of strangers as after some kid hits you in the head a few times, I know I dont even want to share where I PUT a microphone, let alone how I modified it, in some circles anymore. Anything to keep the major content contributors happy and comfortable sharing under the terms we have had such great success with in the past would be more or less fine by me. Half of my posts are about shaving pets and marrows anyway.

dave

 

[JayDee]

I think there are good arguments on both side. gyraf shares all information on his site (like other people here do), so everyone can build clones WITHOUT this forum , but on the other hand I hate profit makers and I would not make the whole forum a members only but maybe some threads like the sources thread or help threads ?

Anyway I would agree to whatever the members here decide.

 

[Mbira]

I think this is a strong argument for keeping the forum open:

Had the forum been closed, we would not have communicated with the guy who tried to sell the G9 on ebay-I sould say he wouldn't have likely easily communicated with us. The situation ended as well as it did because of open dialogue. And again I say that he didn't get any info for what he was selling here-rather on individuals sites that I CAN see a reason to make "members only" if they chose.

Joel (also my real name, Peter :wink: )

 

[Gustav]

[quote author="Aharon"][quote author="Aharon"]I always wonder when people buy 10 PCBs,where do the other 9 or 8 go to? [/quote]

Never build anything for a friend or ordered something together with a friend to save on postage?[/quote]


True......
Aharon[/quote]

VERY few people buy 10 PCBs, and when they do, they buy mixed stuff, Seems more like they are adding to their own recording arsenal imo. There has also been a few grouporders, but I can tell you that noone is ordering large quanteties of the same boards. Cept for once, and that went through Jakob, so I highly doubt there was anything going on there :shock:
Gustav

 

[alk509]

Kinda off-topic, but I'd like to point out that by building an SSL clone, Solid State Logic does NOT lose any business (I can't afford their stuff to begin with).

Peace,
Al.

 

[JPrisus]

Someone mentioned the original designer losing out on sales due to all this DIY stuff... well, yes and no. Who's missing out on a Pultec EQ? Just the companies who have already stole the original design, since there is no Pultec any longer. SSL doesn't have to worry about losing sales, that already happened when Alan Smart offered a similar product for less $$$ (Sure the comps have their differences but that's a matter of personal taste). The 1176 is already being butchered in the name of UA, and Purple has shown that it can still be done 'right' if you care enough. They even offer a PCB on their site! Neve stuff has been beaten to death in the past few years, some good, some not-so-good. I would never condone the sale of DIY clones for profit, but to speak of 'stealing' is wrong also, since everything we're so worried about has already been stolen anyway. hell, that's how it all ended up here.

Then there's the issue of those who may not even consider buying the originals, in which case that's of no concern. Most guys who do sound for a living are much too busy 'doing sound' to be bothered building a compressor when they can buy one with their next paycheck. I'm building an SSL because it's not worth $3k to me and i probably would never buy one, but the knowledge gained by doing this will be immense and it'll be a cool toy to add to the arsenal.


Bottom line: keep the forum public, consider the knowledge gained through DIY to be the real value here, and if people try to use this wealth of information for their personal benefit, it will come back to haunt them just like anything else. I understand the intentions of this forum, but if you're offering clone PCBs for sale, then the buyer has the right to do whatever he/she wants with them. If this becomes a closed forum, anyone serious enough about doing this will just register and do it anyway.

 

[PRR]

> I think we are over-reacting to that eBay poster selling the G9.

WAY over-reacting.

I missed the listing... how many was he selling? One? Ten?

Anybody here sold ten boxes? A few of us have. It is hardly worth it in terms of "profit".

> Besides its nearly impossible to make any money at this stuff unless you are willing to dedicate all you are to it and start a real business. Just ask sceneria.

Exactly. And even the folks here with "real businesses" can hardly make the rent on their space.

> BUT will someone making money from one of these projects really hurt any of us?

Probably not.

Anyway: how much stuff here is "original"?

And does anybody even know how copyright applies to circuits? You can copyright the drawing, but not the circuit. Stealing the image is a violation, but building a box from it is not. There is also Patent Law, but IMHO that's mostly worthless in audio.

> will it just make us jealous? So what if someone gets rich?

Right. So frikkin what? Ask rather: why does one person get rich and another does not? It is almost never about stealing plans.

> What direct effect does that have on us?

Gyraf might have lost a sale. Quite possibly not, if Gyraf isn't marketing well (or in that part of the world) and this other guy is.

> how much of a buck will really get turned in the end?

You can hire a chinese factory to build boat-loads, or you can hand-craft a few many-kilobuck toys. Everybody in the middle is starving and probably should be happy someone else is getting solder-burns, tying up cash in parts-orders, going to the post office, dealing with money orders from strangers in strange lands, and housemates who don't like wire clippings all over the den.

Anyway: don't sweat the small infringements. Wait until someone DOES "get rich", then sue their butt off. Why waste karma over some guy who is as poor as you are? Your lawyer knows better: he won't touch this case until there is big money in the pot.

> dont think that is going to do too much to stop an *******

Nothing stops them.

> a STEP in the right direction towards keeping the designers who participate freely here positive about sharing their design ideas

It also annoys designers who are irregular visitors: not easy to "pop in". And since many good designers WORK for a living, either hand-crafting or whipping their subcontractors, they don't want to spare even the small time needed for "recreational" forum visits.

It all strikes me as a tempest in a penny-jar.

 

[JPrisus]

also, you'll never prevent idiots from doing business with Evilbay... there are always bogus Manleys, GMLs, Crane Songs etc. up there. That dude posting the G9 is really no different than any other scam, be it DIY or otherwise. The only difference is, a gullible Ebayer would be much more inclined to bid on an auction for a well-known brand name. Which means we have even less to be worried about!

 

[nacho459]

I think it is really lame when some one rips off another person's schematic for profit, IE: Mesa Boogie. I think that is just a matter of character though.

I think it would be lame if we had to make this a members only forum. Lame, but possibly necessary. I guess we really need to figure out if we are being reactionary or really thinking with a clear view. If one or two people are abusing the forum should we build a wall around it? I think we really need to be careful with what we post, and who we share designs with. Especially when it comes down to a lot of the projects that have been simplified down to just PCB stuffing. I think whoever wants to make / sell PCBs should be allowed to, but we need to try and be responsible to who ends up with them... Some kid in New Jersey, or some suit in China.
In the end there are ******** who will take advantage of any situation, and it is up to all of us to try and find them and expose them, rather then trying to hide from them.

 

[al_p]

[quote author="Mbira"] The situation ended as well as it did because of open dialogue.[/quote]

he got reamed.

it could have ended more pleasantly if he didn't keep reinforcing that his little operation was a capitalist venture in every post. had he just ceased and desisted, things would have been much less fiery. the world is full of ********, and there will always be someone trying to rip you off in one way or another. i'm not sure if having a closed forum, or a concierge at the front desk will keep out the ******** since they could just register as much as they wanted. but like other have said at least we would have a beat on who the scumbags are.

i would support a closed forum, as long as those who are legit and sincere can still find it and get in, because that was me when i found this group at the old place. i can't believe how great this place/group has been, i really expected more SMGaudio situations to crop up here. i guess we should be thankful and try to protect what we have if we can. if having a closed forum can do this, i'm all for it.

and actually while people are reading this thread, i just wanna say thank you to everyone here. i'm not the biggest poster here, but i come here every day, read and try to learn as much as i can, and i really feel like it has made me a better engineer.