Analog vs Digital?
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lolo-m
Well-known member
I really like the blind test ! :thumb:
Analog is IMO the real thing. Digital is only a reproduction of the Analog.
BUT I RECORD AND MIX IN DIGITAL DOMAIN.
Why?
- Cheaper (did you ever buy analog multitrack tapes?)
- Easier to dub, cut, replace...
- Nothing is destructive
But if you've got a real analyser try do look what a digital eq or comp can do. I checked a boost at 1250hz on a BSS FDS336 fed by a 1250hz sinewave. We could see the 1250 hz signal + 2500 + 3750 + ... + 800 :!: :!: :!:
Yes, the algorythm, to save DSP power isn't properly writen... And generate 800 hz on this particular setting... This is the real problem with digital domain. POOR ALGORYTHM MEANS POOR SOUND. I've got a DM1000 YAMAHA at the studio and it was my main mixer. I was doing everything inside the desk. Now, I use it only as a summing mixer and my mixes are more open than before, really more open. I use 4 UAD-1 cards and nearly no other plugin with nuendo.
Analog is IMO the real thing. Digital is only a reproduction of the Analog.
BUT I RECORD AND MIX IN DIGITAL DOMAIN.
Why?
- Cheaper (did you ever buy analog multitrack tapes?)
- Easier to dub, cut, replace...
- Nothing is destructive
But if you've got a real analyser try do look what a digital eq or comp can do. I checked a boost at 1250hz on a BSS FDS336 fed by a 1250hz sinewave. We could see the 1250 hz signal + 2500 + 3750 + ... + 800 :!: :!: :!:
Yes, the algorythm, to save DSP power isn't properly writen... And generate 800 hz on this particular setting... This is the real problem with digital domain. POOR ALGORYTHM MEANS POOR SOUND. I've got a DM1000 YAMAHA at the studio and it was my main mixer. I was doing everything inside the desk. Now, I use it only as a summing mixer and my mixes are more open than before, really more open. I use 4 UAD-1 cards and nearly no other plugin with nuendo.
Not to confuse the issue but analog and digital audio paths are both lesser dimensional representations of a more complex acoustic event. Perfect storage and transmission of inadequate information leads to an inadequate result.
Neither IMO is "the" limiting factor in realistic reproduction, and with proper attention to detail can do what they do without introducing obviously distracting artifacts. Taking reproduction to the next level will not be accomplished by reducing the tiny remaining errors from either of these.
Of course I could be wrong...
JR
Neither IMO is "the" limiting factor in realistic reproduction, and with proper attention to detail can do what they do without introducing obviously distracting artifacts. Taking reproduction to the next level will not be accomplished by reducing the tiny remaining errors from either of these.
Of course I could be wrong...
JR
pucho812
Well-known member
The "Digital" studio is The Firehouse recording in Pasadena Ca. I installed their first 3 pro tools mix+ systems and pro controls. They have upgraded to HD and Icon since then.
The Debate itself is a moot point. It's obvious which side is winning. IMO it's not the better sounding of the two but it's the cheaper,less hassle(not having to really set it up) alternative. Why record analog when you got Vegas mode on your mouse surface and pitch correction.
Digital has made musicians lazy especially now. More Musicians are aware that one can fix performance issues then people who can actually perform with little to any flaws.
Long gone are the days of the band punch in.
The Debate itself is a moot point. It's obvious which side is winning. IMO it's not the better sounding of the two but it's the cheaper,less hassle(not having to really set it up) alternative. Why record analog when you got Vegas mode on your mouse surface and pitch correction.
Digital has made musicians lazy especially now. More Musicians are aware that one can fix performance issues then people who can actually perform with little to any flaws.
Long gone are the days of the band punch in.
lolo-m
Well-known member
[quote author="pucho812"]Digital has made musicians lazy especially now. More Musicians are aware that one can fix performance issues then people who can actually perform with little to any flaws.
Long gone are the days of the band punch in.
[/quote]
I totaly agree.
How many musician come and record thinking :"I can't play this correctly, but the engineer will fix it".
Long gone are the days of the band punch in.
[/quote]I totaly agree.
How many musician come and record thinking :"I can't play this correctly, but the engineer will fix it".
Underthebigtree
Well-known member
Huge analog fan wherever possible.
With the advent of very large sample libraries, I tried to record MIDI drums on a couple of tracks of my last album. Fantastic drummer, very high quality Roland V-Drum kit, Drums from Hell sample library generating gajillions of separate tracks to mix in analog. It just sounded lifeless compared to recording his real drum kit.
I've experimented with tracking with sampled pianos for ease of use for years. The other day I threw up a pair of Coles 4038's about 4 feet from the lid of my Mason and Hamlin, in my living room. The result? Absurdly more depth than the best piano library I've heard.
Sadly, my Ampex MM-1200 has been sitting in the garage for the last year and a half, as there is no room in my current studio for it. But as soon as I move, it's getting set up again. It is hard to justify, though. Lot's of overhead and hassle to deal with.
With the advent of very large sample libraries, I tried to record MIDI drums on a couple of tracks of my last album. Fantastic drummer, very high quality Roland V-Drum kit, Drums from Hell sample library generating gajillions of separate tracks to mix in analog. It just sounded lifeless compared to recording his real drum kit.
I've experimented with tracking with sampled pianos for ease of use for years. The other day I threw up a pair of Coles 4038's about 4 feet from the lid of my Mason and Hamlin, in my living room. The result? Absurdly more depth than the best piano library I've heard.
Sadly, my Ampex MM-1200 has been sitting in the garage for the last year and a half, as there is no room in my current studio for it. But as soon as I move, it's getting set up again. It is hard to justify, though. Lot's of overhead and hassle to deal with.
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I embrace both formats, but I bet there would have been a bigger difference had Digidesign not been put in charge of the "simple" experiment. They used a couple of unbiased engineers, why would they use the MOST digitally biased audio company in the world to set up the test? After all, Digidesign sells digital only products, and allowing a seasoned recording engineer (who has no monetary interest in the outcome) to set up the simple test, would have certainly produced different results.
Personally, I would have played an analogue mix directly off of the 2" master through a decent analogue console and then through a nice 16 bit stereo converter (to simulate the conversion process to CD), and sync that to the DAW playing it's own mix out of a stereo pair of outputs with no plug-ins or outboard gear allowed on either mix.
I also noticed that the segment started out as a analog verses MP3 comparison, and mutated into a "some verses were created using an analogue console, and others were digital" comparison.
I'm not arguing in favor of either format ( I use both), but I know that if my clients can hear the same difference that I do, Jean Marie, and his assistant Colin should certainly be able to.
Personally, I would have played an analogue mix directly off of the 2" master through a decent analogue console and then through a nice 16 bit stereo converter (to simulate the conversion process to CD), and sync that to the DAW playing it's own mix out of a stereo pair of outputs with no plug-ins or outboard gear allowed on either mix.
I also noticed that the segment started out as a analog verses MP3 comparison, and mutated into a "some verses were created using an analogue console, and others were digital" comparison.
I'm not arguing in favor of either format ( I use both), but I know that if my clients can hear the same difference that I do, Jean Marie, and his assistant Colin should certainly be able to.
okgb
Well-known member
Although it doesn't HAVE TO BE , for many things in the world today
Digital means cheaper , not necessarily better [ it often can be ]
but it is sold as both , and as support is dropped on older things
one has no choice , the whoring of society
Digital means cheaper , not necessarily better [ it often can be ]
but it is sold as both , and as support is dropped on older things
one has no choice , the whoring of society
pucho812
Well-known member
[quote author="lolo-m"]
I totaly agree.
How many musician come and record thinking :"I can't play this correctly, but the engineer will fix it".[/quote]
is that a trick question :?
I totaly agree.
How many musician come and record thinking :"I can't play this correctly, but the engineer will fix it".[/quote]
is that a trick question :?
bcarso
Well-known member
One thing the clip doesn't even mention as a possibility is the release of the mix etc. on vinyl.
Although there are so many things that one can do wrong cutting and playing back vinyl records, it's instructive to have a listen to some of the classic direct-to-disc recordings with an excellent playback system, just to get a sense of how good the format can be.
Although there are so many things that one can do wrong cutting and playing back vinyl records, it's instructive to have a listen to some of the classic direct-to-disc recordings with an excellent playback system, just to get a sense of how good the format can be.
clintrubber
Well-known member
Any opinions here on the 'Shellac routine' ?
(selling their albums in vinyl form and throwing in an unlabelled CD of it for free). For a true A vs D comparison this won't do of course, too many factors into play.
BTW, to my surprise I thought I even saw the choice of 16 & 24 bit downloads at the T&G site... the choice of buying it as a 7" or 12" would have been more natural for them I'd say...
(selling their albums in vinyl form and throwing in an unlabelled CD of it for free). For a true A vs D comparison this won't do of course, too many factors into play.
BTW, to my surprise I thought I even saw the choice of 16 & 24 bit downloads at the T&G site... the choice of buying it as a 7" or 12" would have been more natural for them I'd say...
The Kid
Well-known member
analog all the way
BTW, it's the same thing with the switch to digital TV. The reason for the switch is supposed to be because "digital is better". But the REAL reason (main) is because of the FCC selling the frequencies that are used by TV for other purposes . It's gonna cause a lot of small stations to disappear, due to the HUGE cost involved switching over all the equipment.
At least with analog TV you can get a fuzzy picture; with digital, it's either there, or it's NOT (black). Not to mention the lip sync issues. Hmmm, some progress.
BTW, it's the same thing with the switch to digital TV. The reason for the switch is supposed to be because "digital is better". But the REAL reason (main) is because of the FCC selling the frequencies that are used by TV for other purposes . It's gonna cause a lot of small stations to disappear, due to the HUGE cost involved switching over all the equipment.
At least with analog TV you can get a fuzzy picture; with digital, it's either there, or it's NOT (black). Not to mention the lip sync issues. Hmmm, some progress.
clintrubber
Well-known member
[quote author="drpat"]Apparently, this is a pretty common thing. I just completed a vinyl release that also had a CD stuffed in the jacket, which is funny, because the project was tracked and mixed in the digital domain...[/quote]
Ah I see, just the other way around, funny indeed. Here in town vinyl = street credibility, but no idea how many releases are coming from digital as well.
Ah I see, just the other way around, funny indeed. Here in town vinyl = street credibility, but no idea how many releases are coming from digital as well.
lolo-m
Well-known member
[quote author="pucho812"][quote author="lolo-m"]
I totaly agree.
How many musician come and record thinking :"I can't play this correctly, but the engineer will fix it".[/quote]
is that a trick question :?[/quote]
I meant, most of the young musicians I know are not practicing enough, and are not playing well when they come and record in studio... The possibility of endless dubs, cuts, slices, quantize, replace, is making musicians lasy... And I always ask them: "You don't manage to play this riff in studio. I can fix that and you'll have a good record. But what will you do on stage?"...
I work with Digital because it's an easy and cheap format... I work with digital because I can't own a 128 track desk. I work with Digital because quantizing drums is easier with a computer than with a cutter, but I still hate to do that and I try not to do that...
Digital is a fantastic tool to use, unfortunately we use it too much.
I totaly agree.
How many musician come and record thinking :"I can't play this correctly, but the engineer will fix it".[/quote]
is that a trick question :?[/quote]
I meant, most of the young musicians I know are not practicing enough, and are not playing well when they come and record in studio... The possibility of endless dubs, cuts, slices, quantize, replace, is making musicians lasy... And I always ask them: "You don't manage to play this riff in studio. I can fix that and you'll have a good record. But what will you do on stage?"...
I work with Digital because it's an easy and cheap format... I work with digital because I can't own a 128 track desk. I work with Digital because quantizing drums is easier with a computer than with a cutter, but I still hate to do that and I try not to do that...
Digital is a fantastic tool to use, unfortunately we use it too much.
you all need to find some better musicians. down in sarasota, when I ran a studio, there are/were a couple dozen ace players. guitar player magazine players of the year, Al dimeola's cuban conga player, blah blah blah. you cant get further from the music industry but there was a music scene. cut and paste? maybe twice in a whole project and guess what? 2in cuts. I beat a protools operator for an editing gig for all the render time at the end. 1/4 tape need not "bounce to disk". I just had someone tell me " wow you use that like a musical instrument" i said, no, Im using it like a tape machine....
