Bass amp OT specs.

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Kit

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 13, 2006
Messages
467
Location
Sweden
Im having some custom PT wound at a local winder. Just for the fun of it, we thought that we would have a go att winding a audio transformer too. The winder guy has some limited experience winding audio iron but he says that it was many, many years ago. So I suggested that we started with something simple and lo-fi.

It just so happens that I have a Fender Bassman 100 on my bench thats missing an OT. Perfect!
The specs on the OT is roughly,

100W EI-120
pri.Z: 2kohm ct.
sek.Z: 4ohm

Now, do any of you know how these old beasts were wound? Im guessing theres no interleaving, bifiliar or anything fancy going on in there, right?



 
Definitely a question for CJ.  But I would add one or two additional secondary taps, at least an 8 ohm.
 
Kit said:
Im having some custom PT wound at a local winder. Just for the fun of it, we thought that we would have a go att winding a audio transformer too. The winder guy has some limited experience winding audio iron but he says that it was many, many years ago. So I suggested that we started with something simple and lo-fi.

It just so happens that I have a Fender Bassman 100 on my bench thats missing an OT. Perfect!
The specs on the OT is roughly,

100W EI-120
pri.Z: 2kohm ct.
sek.Z: 4ohm

Now, do any of you know how these old beasts were wound? Im guessing theres no interleaving, bifiliar or anything fancy going on in there, right?
You would be surprised...Fender output transformers used to be very well spec'd and made. Most probably interleaved.
 
yeah, what abbeyroad said, the old shumachers were the real deal,

bi fi,  inter leaving, and reverse winding,

what sound are you after?

original tweed bassman keith richard style with the torched grill cloth and ciggy burns all the way into the yellow pine cabinet?

fender did interleave the windings, but later on, they just went kind of pri-sec cheap azz,

so, does the cheap azz sound ok?

sure, because bass does not radiate a lot of hf, who needs 3 db down at 40 k?

for bass?
well, you would be surprised at what the human ear can differ, so maybe we need that old transformer spec,


becuase you can always roll off extra program info if you neeed to, but once it is lost, you can not get it back, so better to have high end and not need it, thean the other way around,

root 2, remember that number, why?

1.4 is the number you divide the sec turns by to get the taps, 16 ohms, divide bi root 2, we have 8 ohms, divide by root 2, we have 4 ohms,

proof:  16 ohms divided by 8 ohms = z ratio of 2-1,

but z is turns squared, so to get turns, take root of....2!

so 120 turns for 16 ohms would be 120/1.4 = 85 turns for the 8 ohm tap , and

85/1.4 = 60 turns for the 4 ohm tap

for the pri, do we want screen taps for ul?

do we ant the flux the same?

what the flux has flux got to do with it?

changer the core size and you change the low end distortion.

MacIntosh uses a certain spec when designing their famous transformers,

something like 4% thd at 8 hz?

you want 4% at 4 hz? you have to double the core size.

you want Fender 4% at 20 hz?

use the stock core, a little grit in the bass is ok,

ever hear a bass thru a Mac amp?
sounds low and clean, like bob weir of the dead,

ok so keep the stock core if you want the same sound,

so we have the core, how many turns of what?

we got an honest 80 watts here, if we want to play 4 sets and drink 5,

we need a heat rise that makes the amp start to smell at last call,

so we need about 120 turns on the sec of #26,

what pri z do you want?

i like 3300 for some reason,  8)

so we need 120 tuns stepeed up to what?

square of the z ratio?

what is z ratio?

3300/16 = 206 and change,

root = 14 and change,

so 14 times 120 gives sec turns of 1680.

put a center tap at 840

winding structure?

put down about 200 turns of pri, wind it tight!

grab 4 sec wires #26 at once, wind 3 layers, 30 turns per layer,

lay down about 400 turns of #26 pri,

grab 4 sec wires and do the same thing you did the first time,

then about 400 turns of sec,

grab 4 sec wires and do the same thing you did the first time,

lay down about 400 turns of #26 pri,

grab 4 sec wires and do the same thing you did the first time,

now about 200 turns and we are done.

.
.
.
well, not quite.  ???

now you have to figure out how to parallel all those sec windings!  :'(

but boy, what a sound!

you want to reverse wind one of the pri windings, thats your bidness, i'm in trouble enuff already, hey Doc Hoyer of Audio Transformers in WI, whats up!

happy holidays and thanks mr authorized mac and marantz winder!  :D
 
CJ, very informative post. Thanks a lot.

So, not as easy as I thought. Nothing ever is........... ;D

What about pri. H?

I just cracked open a 15W "no name " PP-EL84 OT. No interleave. Just sec. on top of pri.
Sounded ok for guitar work, as i recall.



 
Since it is a large low-Z part for a low frequency chore, it isn't very fussy.

The 40W-50W/pair Fenders run fairly low idle current. They have a touch of crossover distortion. When one tube cuts-off, its half of the winding "kicks". The kick is loaded by the other half and the load, but leakage inductance against capacitance will cause some high frequency hash.

You usually want good coupling between the two halves of the primary. Maybe better than your coupling to the secondary. That may suggest a construction like P1a P2a P1b P2b Sec, four primary sections shuffled together.

OTOH it may work to use a 447VCT:20V "power transformer" construction. Wind, tap, wind, paper, wind.

At this scale the wire gauge for low secondary loss may be uncomfortably large, hard to bend. And the ratio says it will be only a few turns, maybe not the full width of the winding. That's why you put it on the outside, and consider parallel bifilar. The smaller wire bends easier. Double the turns of 0.707 size wire may fill the winding width better.
 
Thanks, PRR.

That may suggest a construction like P1a P2a P1b P2b Sec, four primary sections shuffled together.


Do you mean, layered on top of each other, with the secondary last?

Just to clarify so theres no misunderstanding,
This  is silverface 100W Bassman, 4 X 6l6GC.
Its not a twin reverb OT. This beast is twice the size.
Its actually a decent bass amp, as opposed to the 50W version.

Schem:
http://www.drtube.com/schematics/fender/bassman100.gif
 
Update,

A friend was kind enough to lend me his Bassman 100 head so I could do some research on the OT.
After much bribing and begging, he even let me open the endbells and cut the tape(!) to reveal the winding geometry. Sorry, no pictures.

The data:
Schumacher 606-5-33
Fender nr. 021657A
P:100W
Pri. Z: (I guessed 2K but that seems to be too low). Some websites state 2,7K. Others 2,9K.
Sec Z: 4 ohm.
Core: EI-150
Not interleaved. But layer wound. Does this matter for sound?
The winding geometry is:
Pri A
CT
Pri B
Sec on top.

I managed to calculate the turns of the secondary.
Theres 4 layers of sec. Each with 20 turns. Wire size is 2,5mm2! Thats about 13AWG I think, for you across the pond.
So the sec is 80 turns of 2,5mm2 in 4 layers.

Too bad I cant get to the pri. without destroying the whole thing. But knowing the sec for sure makes it easier to calculate the pri.

Lets see. If we figure the pri Z to be 2,8K we get;

Z1/Z2=2800/4=700

N1/N2=700sqrt=26.45.

N1=26.45X80=2116

So if we want 2.8K the pri. should be 2116 turns of.................something.
Im thinking 0.128mm2/AWG 26 should do it. Good for about 300mA.



 
> Core: EI-150

That's the E-I size, right? You also need the stack or build: how thick the EI-150s lams are piled up. Number and thickness, or since thickness can vary without any harm, total core thickness.

> layer wound

You "could" scramble-wind, random. But that might get an end too close to a start which invites voltage breakdown. Layers with paper ensure small voltage between wires. And a scramble-wind leaves a poor surface for the very fat secondary wires; building with paper layers leaves a nice smooth surface.

> Pri. Z: (I guessed 2K but that seems to be too low). Some websites state 2,7K. Others 2,9K.

You can get the primary Z by putting 6VAC on the 4 ohm tap, measuring VAC at the secondary. This can be done in-amp: leave the power off (tubes cold), use an external 6V 1.5A heater transformer. The secondary end-to-end voltage will be around 160V, use clips not fingers to read across two 6L6 plates (or 80V one plate to main B+ cap).

On the 400V 40W/pair models, 4K/pair was often used. On the higher voltage models Fender may have used a higher load Z. The 6L6GC datasheet suggests a 5K6/pair load. Tubes are all +/-20% and speakers are -20%...+500%, so anything 2K5 to 3K per Quad will be fine, 2K to 4K won't be wrong.

> N1=26.45X80=2116

If you know the total area available, OR the total resistance and the average length of turn, you can estimate a wire size.
 
>That's the E-I size, right?

Yes, E-I. Core thickness is 51mm.

>You "could" scramble-wind, random

The winder house that I use for my PT, winds their  stuff on plastic bobbins by machine. So the turns are going to be exact and neat.
I dont think they do layer wound.........but Im guessing the insulation on the wire is a lot better today than it was in 1965?

>OR the total resistance and the average length of turn, you can estimate a wire size.

I guesstimate the average turns length to be about 20cm. Total primary resistance is 101 ohm.
So that means we have about 2116X20=42320cm=423,2m.

101/423.2=0,238=238ohm per km.

This table http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge states 0.08mm2/awg28 as 212ohm/km.
Sounds about right?

 
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