Bo-Jo goes down and other political meanderings

[AnalogPackrat]

Once again, the only contribution is a childish ad-hominem. Mods?

You are an expert, aren't you? I thought you had claimed as much a few days ago.

 

[JohnRoberts]

don't poke the bear...

JR

 

[living sounds]

don't poke the bear...

JR

I'm not a bear but he calls himself a rat. And you called him a pig.

And the thread goes south.

 

[living sounds]

Things written in *this thread* illustrate that, despite a career long string of scandals, very many people maintain that he's just a bit of a rogue whose worst crime is poor judgement and perhaps being a bit randy. No, he did not take the country into an illegal war. But to suggest that his string of failures are just minor things seems really quite naive to me.

Tribal emotions, the identity politics of the right, overrule everything else with right wing populists. It comes down to the feeling that"he's our bastard"...

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I'm not a bear but he calls himself a rat. And you called him a pig.

Perhaps the bear is JR. I am a packrat, but perhaps you don't get the reference. My feelings aren't hurt by any of this. I'm not calling for Mama to shut others down, either.

And the thread goes south.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Tribal emotions, the identity politics of the right, overrule everything else with right wing populists. It comes down to the feeling that"he's our bastard"...

More overgeneralization and broad brush painting to hide simple projection.

 

[living sounds]

My feelings aren't hurt by any of this. I'm not calling for Mama to shut others down, either.

I take none of this personal. I prefer an aggressive actual discussion to soft spoken small talk. But these ad hominems are silly, maybe we can agree on that. Everyone here should be able to voice opionions without getting attacked personally. And like I said, you have no idea about my background. Plus, it's obvious to me that to you this is a contest of loyalty to your group. But I want to talk about substance.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I take none of this personal. I prefer an aggressive actual discussion to soft spoken small talk.

I've expressed my opinions clearly. I've explained some of my past and how certain events and observations have shaped and changed my world view. You take every disagreement with your opinion as ad hominem.

But these ad hominems are silly, maybe we can agree on that. Everyone here should be able to voice opionions without getting attacked personally. And like I said, you have no idea about my background.

You've failed to share anything about your personal or political philosophy, preferring to sit back and snipe at "the evil right wing" or the selfish Republicans. If you really wanted an open discussion you would have said more about systems or approaches that you think are better. From what I have observed you haven't done that. I've asked you several times and you refuse to say. So who is it that is arguing in bad faith here?

Plus, it's obvious to me that to you this is a contest of loyalty to your group. But I want to talk about substance.

That's why I've voted for politicians from all over the spectrum (except socialists/communists). That's why I never have been in, nor will I ever join, any political party. Because I'm "loyal to [my] group," in your opinion. Give me a break.

 

[scott2000]

Everyone here should be able to voice opionions without getting attacked personally

Guess maybe it can sometimes seem that wrapping a group of people up in one package and criticizing is sort of like attacking everyone personally, at the same time?...

 

[living sounds]

You've failed to share anything about your personal or political philosophy, preferring to sit back and snipe at "the evil right wing" or the selfish Republicans. If you really wanted an open discussion you would have said more about systems or approaches that you think are better. From what I have observed you haven't done that. I've asked you several times and you refuse to say. So who is it that is arguing in bad faith here?

I've had too many discussions here with John about political systems than I can count. I do think there need to be adjustments made in the US to ensure actual democratic representation. But if you view the Constitution as it is as a bible (or, as many do, selectively pick tenants or their interpretation to be unchangeable) that would be a moot point.

But the best system cannot work if people are misguided, are in too precarious a situation or too ignorant to want to make long term improvements. And I think that's really the issue globally. I can get mad about the daily onslaught of bad news and bad decisions, ignorance and cruelty. But I do care more about the big picture, the drivers behind these developments. The cyclical as well as dialectic nature of culture, politics, economics etc. And the cliff we are driving towards. It's real.

 

[living sounds]

Guess maybe it can sometimes seem that wrapping a group of people up in one package and criticizing is sort of like attacking everyone personally, at the same time?...

Well, if you associate yourself with those people - freely - that's what you'll have to content with. And if you fall for the lies, justify their cruelty, gaslighting, greed and other bad behaviour (which is what gets critized) the right thing to do would be to reflect about those things honestly, wouldn't it? But that doesn't seem to happen very often...

 

[AnalogPackrat]

I've had too many discussions here with John about political systems than I can count. I do think there need to be adjustments made in the US to ensure actual democratic representation.

Why are you so concerned with the operation of a foreign government? Let me guess...you dislike the electoral college and the Senate. I know you dislike judges who follow the law as written.

But if you view the Constitution as it is as a bible (or, as many do, selectively pick tenants or their interpretation to be unchangeable) that would be a moot point.

It is the written law of our Federal government and has self-modifying features built into it. Your lack of appreciation for (or understanding of) it does not constitute reason to abandon large parts of it.

But the best system cannot work if people are misguided, are in too precarious a situation or too ignorant to want to make long term improvements. And I think that's really the issue globally. I can get mad about the daily onslaught of bad news and bad decisions, ignorance and cruelty. But I do care more about the big picture, the drivers behind these developments. The cyclical as well as dialectic nature of culture, politics, economics etc. And the cliff we are driving towards. It's real.

More generalities that reveal nothing about systems you think work better. I don't believe humans can realistically govern populations at the global scale. There are too many local variations. Hence smaller nations (and states/regions within nations) with more localized governments seem to be the most stable condition. Brexit was a good step back in that direction.

 

[JohnRoberts]

People sure like to argue...

Well, if you associate yourself with those people - freely - that's what you'll have to content with. And if you fall for the lies, justify their cruelty, gaslighting, greed and other bad behaviour (which is what gets critized) the right thing to do would be to reflect about those things honestly, wouldn't it? But that doesn't seem to happen very often...

and you don't think any of this is inflammatory or personally insulting? Why is everything so personal ?
===
I can see why some forums prohibit political and religious discussions because the participants are not mature enough to remain civil (not meant as an insult, but a general observation).

I could lock this thread too, but the partisan enmity would just break out in another thread.
====

I recall decades ago there were some pretty nasty exchanges here too, but those mainly occurred during presidential campaigns that only occurred once every 4 years. Since then identity politics and social media has expanded to partisan arguments 24x7. Partisan politics has corrupted pretty much all modern culture.

I hoped we were better than that, but maybe not.


JR

 

[living sounds]

Look, if you cannot or don't want to see the obvious disfunction (or even think it is by design) then that's that. The problem is the outcome, which does have massive, even global implications.

 

[living sounds]

People sure like to argue...


and you don't think any of this is inflammatory or personally insulting? Why is everything so personal ?
===
I can see why some forums prohibit political and religious discussions because the participants are not mature enough to remain civil (not meant as an insult, but a general observation).

I could lock this thread too, but the partisan enmity would just break out in another thread.
====

I recall decades ago there were some pretty nasty exchanges here too, but those mainly occurred during presidential campaigns that only occurred once every 4 years. Since then identity politics and social media has expanded to partisan arguments 24x7. Partisan politics has corrupted pretty much all modern culture.

I hoped we were better than that, but maybe not.


JR

You are one of those who frequently start political threads. And freely throw your opinions around. And now you wonder why people argue?

For me it isn't personal unless someone tries to make it personal. Feel free to attack German or European policies or leaders and I won't answer with nationalistic resentment. I can explain in detail the reasoning and wisdom behind the German constitution (which we were lucky to receive as it is with help from people of the enlightened FDR adminstration).

 

[JohnRoberts]

I do not wonder why people argue... I just ask them to be civil and not make everything personal.... Like you just did again.

JR

 

[AnalogPackrat]

You are one of those who frequently start political threads. And freely throw your opinions around. And now you wonder why people argue?

For me it isn't personal unless someone tries to make it personal. Feel free to attack German or European policies or leaders and I won't answer with nationalistic resentment.

I leave the Germans to their own devices. It isn't my business unless they start another big war.

I can explain in detail the reasoning and wisdom behind the German constitution (which we were lucky to receive as it is with help from people of the enlightened FDR adminstration).

Again, your country, your constitution, your business. FDR caused and exacerbated more problems than he solved here. His legacy is massive wasteful government programs and millions of dependents.

 

[rob_gould]

I don't believe humans can realistically govern populations at the global scale. There are too many local variations. Hence smaller nations (and states/regions within nations) with more localized governments seem to be the most stable condition. Brexit was a good step back in that direction.

How do you see small government handling large (global) corporations though?

There's some appeal to the small government idea, but my feeling is that while governments can be wasteful and can be corrupted to varying degrees, large business *really* can't be trusted to have the best interests of the citizen at heart.

This is why I disagree about the EU. The EU (for all its many faults) has the teeth to be able to challenge and fight against corporate greed, corporate corruption etc partly because of its size. The whole is stronger than the sum of the parts etc.

 

[living sounds]

I leave the Germans to their own devices. It isn't my business unless they start another big war.


Again, your country, your constitution, your business. FDR caused and exacerbated more problems than he solved here. His legacy is massive wasteful government programs and millions of dependents.

Sorry, I'm done wasting my time.

 

[iturnknobs]

I do not wonder why people argue... I just ask them to be civil and not make everything personal.... Like you just did again.

JR

Weren't these shenanigans just ended a couple days ago?