[Build] Stereotype Mark V Mixer (photo heavy)
- Thread starter hakanai
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Like the switched insert you worked into the sum path - just makes life a bit more wonderful to easily have a bypassable outboard chain.
Do I see a That receiver chip there to unbalance? The provision of balanced send, balanced return properly debalanced as well as relay switching shows serious depth to the design.
Love the traffos and ACA style summing. And the traffo balanced aux out, in addition to the main out is so very .. luxurious! It really adds one more foothold to make a wildly awesome distributed system.
I imagine the local faders could be replaced/augmented with off-board big faders.
Personally I can see a value in having both - local fader becomes a sort 'max gain' knob and the offboard big fader is the traditional .. big fader. Even better if the sum amp has a way of jumpering for different gains.
Maybe that's just me - I'm obsessed with doing a mastering desk kind of thing. 8channels +summing in a rack and 10 big faders on a sloping desktop. Nothing original mind you - basically like the neve setup but smaller and with PG faders.
The use of the 3rd coil on the traffos is clever - nothing missed at all here.
With the vu & headphone feeds as well as variable monitor outputs. Headphone drive is a nice and pro touch.
With regard to metering, personally I would see the small led array on board to be fine, with the provison for adding bigger metering offboard as icing on a very fine cake. Something this good demands classy offboard metering
Looking forward to how the solo figures into all this. More sum amps or clever switching ? Or both!
----
As you said - that's quite a monster there no doubt!
Just a great feature set - look forward to seeing how your pcb implementation goes.
This could be a very classy piece of kit indeed. Definately worthy the modern api movement and I think raises the bar considerably for this kind of thing. The feature set both creates and plugs holes in the market.
Do I see a That receiver chip there to unbalance? The provision of balanced send, balanced return properly debalanced as well as relay switching shows serious depth to the design.
Love the traffos and ACA style summing. And the traffo balanced aux out, in addition to the main out is so very .. luxurious! It really adds one more foothold to make a wildly awesome distributed system.
I imagine the local faders could be replaced/augmented with off-board big faders.
Personally I can see a value in having both - local fader becomes a sort 'max gain' knob and the offboard big fader is the traditional .. big fader. Even better if the sum amp has a way of jumpering for different gains.
Maybe that's just me - I'm obsessed with doing a mastering desk kind of thing. 8channels +summing in a rack and 10 big faders on a sloping desktop. Nothing original mind you - basically like the neve setup but smaller and with PG faders.
The use of the 3rd coil on the traffos is clever - nothing missed at all here.
With the vu & headphone feeds as well as variable monitor outputs. Headphone drive is a nice and pro touch.
With regard to metering, personally I would see the small led array on board to be fine, with the provison for adding bigger metering offboard as icing on a very fine cake. Something this good demands classy offboard metering
Looking forward to how the solo figures into all this. More sum amps or clever switching ? Or both!
----
As you said - that's quite a monster there no doubt!
Just a great feature set - look forward to seeing how your pcb implementation goes.
This could be a very classy piece of kit indeed. Definately worthy the modern api movement and I think raises the bar considerably for this kind of thing. The feature set both creates and plugs holes in the market.
While on the subject of awesome custom mixing modules and consoles ...
How would one go for face plates metalwork?
For me, being very challenged in the metal work department, the big obstacle is how to get fascia metalwork done.
I've never tried the FrontPanel Express route, though it seems to be a good option.
I've also read of forum member Frank who has a cnc capability and is well recommended.
Making a front panel to suit the serious capabilities of a mixer like this one is going to demand some quality metal!
So for me the challenge would be to get some metalwork for all those knobs and such, as well as a panel for big faders.
Since Don's work is so modular, naturally it lends itself to an rack wide fader panel - 12 slots across.
Enough for the 8 channels and a few for a center section. Or a straight 12 channels.
So - 2 pieces of metal work - one for knobs, one for faders.
Kept simple for modularity, with just the fader, space to mount a PG, and probably a mute switch.
The fader panel could just one fader across or be a rack wide affair.
If a solution to that could be found, then wowee.
The skies the limit. This is, after all, one of the hot emerging markets. It's anyone's field right now.
How would one go for face plates metalwork?
For me, being very challenged in the metal work department, the big obstacle is how to get fascia metalwork done.
I've never tried the FrontPanel Express route, though it seems to be a good option.
I've also read of forum member Frank who has a cnc capability and is well recommended.
Making a front panel to suit the serious capabilities of a mixer like this one is going to demand some quality metal!
So for me the challenge would be to get some metalwork for all those knobs and such, as well as a panel for big faders.
Since Don's work is so modular, naturally it lends itself to an rack wide fader panel - 12 slots across.
Enough for the 8 channels and a few for a center section. Or a straight 12 channels.
So - 2 pieces of metal work - one for knobs, one for faders.
Kept simple for modularity, with just the fader, space to mount a PG, and probably a mute switch.
The fader panel could just one fader across or be a rack wide affair.
If a solution to that could be found, then wowee.
The skies the limit. This is, after all, one of the hot emerging markets. It's anyone's field right now.
hakanai
Well-known member
Once the center section is finalized I will be doing a front panel express piece for mine and will make the file available. I will also make proper CAD drawings for metal work so that people can DIY it or have something custom done. Metal is getting soooo much more convenient, with all the resources around here and front panel express really stepping up there game between powder coating and edge beveling. Pro results are readily available.
The THAT receivers for the insert return will be easily bypass-able by simply not stuffing them and adding a single jump. You can used the fader unbalancing technique (sensitive to the inserted piece of gear's output stage) or slap another transformer in there, if you are bent on keeping things discrete.
Solo is in the drawing. If you look at the small section after the Main out puts you will see an amazingly sloppy section of 2 switches and 2 faders. The 2 switches are going to be a little recessed toggle and a pushbutton. The toggle will decide whether the pushbutton alternates between the mix bus and solo or the 2 track return and solo. The fader is the primary monitor out stereo fader.
Also in the solo section you will see a provision for 2 additional stereo inputs onto the solo bus. This is so you can use another input board as 2 stereo returns. Simply wire off 2 panel mount stereo faders, and four panel mount toggles, and have them jump on the bus at any number spare points you will have on the back plane. Now you have 2 stereo returns with mute and solo.
As for linear faders, the nice thing about most pots is that the pins are on the same spacing as header. So if you want linear just stuff a header instead (or hardwire) To do both may be harder than you think. Real estate is going to be at a premium once I start routing and things like extra footprints near the pots will be tricky. I will always try, but I am already starting to feel that board shrink, so I don't want to promise anything.
I really am trying to make this a complete solution. It is a lot to keep track of though. I definitely have spent a few nights lying in bed staring at the ceiling trying to figure out how to keep the front panel user friendly and not just a glut of controls. So far so good though.
Thanks for the feedback, it really is critical.
Ok now back to this mix I have been neglecting
Don
The THAT receivers for the insert return will be easily bypass-able by simply not stuffing them and adding a single jump. You can used the fader unbalancing technique (sensitive to the inserted piece of gear's output stage) or slap another transformer in there, if you are bent on keeping things discrete.
Solo is in the drawing. If you look at the small section after the Main out puts you will see an amazingly sloppy section of 2 switches and 2 faders. The 2 switches are going to be a little recessed toggle and a pushbutton. The toggle will decide whether the pushbutton alternates between the mix bus and solo or the 2 track return and solo. The fader is the primary monitor out stereo fader.
Also in the solo section you will see a provision for 2 additional stereo inputs onto the solo bus. This is so you can use another input board as 2 stereo returns. Simply wire off 2 panel mount stereo faders, and four panel mount toggles, and have them jump on the bus at any number spare points you will have on the back plane. Now you have 2 stereo returns with mute and solo.
As for linear faders, the nice thing about most pots is that the pins are on the same spacing as header. So if you want linear just stuff a header instead (or hardwire) To do both may be harder than you think. Real estate is going to be at a premium once I start routing and things like extra footprints near the pots will be tricky. I will always try, but I am already starting to feel that board shrink, so I don't want to promise anything.
I really am trying to make this a complete solution. It is a lot to keep track of though. I definitely have spent a few nights lying in bed staring at the ceiling trying to figure out how to keep the front panel user friendly and not just a glut of controls. So far so good though.
Thanks for the feedback, it really is critical.
Ok now back to this mix I have been neglecting
Don
Sounds good regarding the metalwork for the complete unit.
Maybe one day a big fader solution will get out there.
Ok - I thought the relay at the main outs was just a mute Is there a mute on the outputs? I hope so.
Yes - I can see your solo arrangements now. Quite clever with the optional toggle.
wrt to the That receiver chip and options, that's great coverage you describe. Big tick.
That is double plus clever Now I'm getting 'twitchy' 8)
(this from the maker of the 'stereotype', a not too shabby integration of 12 doas on a modular board!)
I have faith!
Maybe one day a big fader solution will get out there.
hakanai said:
Ok - I thought the relay at the main outs was just a mute
Is there a mute on the outputs? I hope so.Yes - I can see your solo arrangements now. Quite clever with the optional toggle.
wrt to the That receiver chip and options, that's great coverage you describe. Big tick.
hakanai said:
That is double plus clever
Now I'm getting 'twitchy' 8)hakanai said:
(this from the maker of the 'stereotype', a not too shabby integration of 12 doas on a modular board!)
I have faith!
hakanai
Well-known member
Ya know, there isn't actually a main mute. It's a feature I don't understand (kinda like inserts on a line mixer). I would want a monitor mute before a 2buss mute, but that's me. Is a 2 buss mute really on your short list? I'll be staring at this board a bit tomorrow so I'll see if here is space.alexc said:
Thanks!alexc said:
Don
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Digressing a bit further on the subject of using both a pot and a linear fader with Don's mixer :
For channels, I think the easiest solution is to have seperate active, balanced linear format fader modules and just insert before Don's input boards.
So no need for any change at all there except :
- a jumper on the solo switch to allow 'remoting' of the solo control to the fader module
- a jumper on the aux 'pre' feed to substitute with an unbalanced pre-fade send from the fader module
So - a control line and an unbal signal line must go from 'remote' to the 'channel input' assemblies.
No worse in terms of interconnects really than say just hanging a big fader unbuffered.
----
An active fader module could be as simple as a pcb with a couple of That transciever chips, and an opamp along with a couple of connectors. Very high quality would be possible for modest $ and difficulty.
The module pcb mounts to the fader and would also have the 'solo' control switch and a 'mute' switch.
So - completely seperate from the mix module and would allow easy 'remoting' a fader without giving anything up.
More elaborate ones could have traffo balancing and/or doa for whatever reason including 'adding more color', in the style of the 2 stage api style tape return channels. Heck, could even have some of them 'vca' thingos too.
So - that's the part I likes. Active transformer balanced fader modules. Big ones.
With those curved faders so loved by george harrison : ;D
For the sum amps, similar concept on the main and aux traffo balanced outs.
Remoting the monitor is not really needed - it remains logically a local function.
But the main and/or the aux sum outs could take remoting with an active fader module.
Or not! As one wishes! That's the beauty of the modular concept.
As long as the underlying implementation is impressive enough. Otherwise why bother?
In this case, I think it would be.
For channels, I think the easiest solution is to have seperate active, balanced linear format fader modules and just insert before Don's input boards.
So no need for any change at all there except :
- a jumper on the solo switch to allow 'remoting' of the solo control to the fader module
- a jumper on the aux 'pre' feed to substitute with an unbalanced pre-fade send from the fader module
So - a control line and an unbal signal line must go from 'remote' to the 'channel input' assemblies.
No worse in terms of interconnects really than say just hanging a big fader unbuffered.
----
An active fader module could be as simple as a pcb with a couple of That transciever chips, and an opamp along with a couple of connectors. Very high quality would be possible for modest $ and difficulty.
The module pcb mounts to the fader and would also have the 'solo' control switch and a 'mute' switch.
So - completely seperate from the mix module and would allow easy 'remoting' a fader without giving anything up.
More elaborate ones could have traffo balancing and/or doa for whatever reason including 'adding more color', in the style of the 2 stage api style tape return channels. Heck, could even have some of them 'vca' thingos too.
So - that's the part I likes. Active transformer balanced fader modules. Big ones.
With those curved faders so loved by george harrison : ;D
For the sum amps, similar concept on the main and aux traffo balanced outs.
Remoting the monitor is not really needed - it remains logically a local function.
But the main and/or the aux sum outs could take remoting with an active fader module.
Or not! As one wishes! That's the beauty of the modular concept.
As long as the underlying implementation is impressive enough. Otherwise why bother?
In this case, I think it would be.
alexc said:
Mute on sum amps not a must have or anything. In my case, I would have that on the remoted big fader.
So no - not required for the standalone build.
alexc said:
Yes, I can certainly understand that in this context - there is already so much functionality there!
These would also be best provided, for the die-hards out there, on an active, balanced fader module.
So much potential 8)
Like what about if there was an alternative pcb fitting into your backplane for this module ?
Would make implementation of a big faders assembly much easier!
If there was, you could also ditch the need for the balanced, switch insert on the summed bus of your center section.
That could be done using one of these modules.
.... cool ...
Anyway - this all just 'tinking aloud' on my part - implementation as you have it already rocks.
Cheers
hakanai
Well-known member
In order to let my brain change gears a little, I have taken a break from the center section in order to implement the revisions necessary in the input and channel boards. While doing these mostly mundane house keeping type tweaks, I began to realize something pretty cool about the new input board. I was a bit of silkscreen and component spacing away from being able to have fader and pan pot mount directly to the pcb. What that means is that with the new input board you can do 3 different things:
1. you can stuff it and wire off the controls just like you have always been able to do. making an awesome line mixer for summing or sub0mixing, with whatever LCR control you want (multi-position switch like my original, LCR toggles, or just permanent assigned)
2. you can use the input board as the line receiver and backplane for the new channel boards, giving you a 12x4x4 mixer in 4ru.
3. OR you can mount fade and pan pots directly to the board and have it mount to the front panel. Giving you a pretty sweet line mixer with minimal wiring to do (still a bit, I mean it is a mixer after all, but a lot less).
Same size board. Same circuit.
I also had the day dream of making the channel board only 2 auxes, but with the addition of a high pass filter. ooooooooooo that sounds nice! It will probably stay as is though. I have a fun filter design from a product I did a while back and I thinking when the dust settles on this iteration of the Stereotype I will make what I lovingly refer to as "the dummy strip". A super simple channel strip with mic pre - filter - basic EQ - one knob compressor.
Ok back to Eagle
Don
1. you can stuff it and wire off the controls just like you have always been able to do. making an awesome line mixer for summing or sub0mixing, with whatever LCR control you want (multi-position switch like my original, LCR toggles, or just permanent assigned)
2. you can use the input board as the line receiver and backplane for the new channel boards, giving you a 12x4x4 mixer in 4ru.
3. OR you can mount fade and pan pots directly to the board and have it mount to the front panel. Giving you a pretty sweet line mixer with minimal wiring to do (still a bit, I mean it is a mixer after all, but a lot less).
Same size board. Same circuit.
I also had the day dream of making the channel board only 2 auxes, but with the addition of a high pass filter. ooooooooooo that sounds nice! It will probably stay as is though. I have a fun filter design from a product I did a while back and I thinking when the dust settles on this iteration of the Stereotype I will make what I lovingly refer to as "the dummy strip". A super simple channel strip with mic pre - filter - basic EQ - one knob compressor.
Ok back to Eagle
Don
electrisizer
Well-known member
hey hakanai, thanks for doing this for the DIY community
to speak for my wishlist (perhaps more people): really a summing mixer -> to integrate all the 500 stuff. since this format has grwon so much last years... commercial and DIY and this little beauties are mixer modules by their nature
YES - theres a perfect solution THE api 1608 but noone can aford
so... a line only mixer with the 1608s or 1604s routing structure would really be great. basic master section, faders, LCR, then connectionwise auxes and groups with insert points (as more as better?)
to speak for my wishlist (perhaps more people): really a summing mixer -> to integrate all the 500 stuff. since this format has grwon so much last years... commercial and DIY and this little beauties are mixer modules by their nature
YES - theres a perfect solution THE api 1608
but noone can afordso... a line only mixer with the 1608s or 1604s routing structure would really be great. basic master section, faders, LCR, then connectionwise auxes and groups with insert points (as more as better?)
hakanai
Well-known member
If only I were so altruistic! I just make what I want to use. I should be thanking all of you guys for being into the project!electrisizer said:hey hakanai, thanks for doing this for the DIY community
I think I am pretty close in terms of feature set, but do let me know if something seems missing.electrisizer said:
Don
I've said my piece before
Almost exactly right in the feature set with the exception (in my tunnel visioned opinion) - remote active fader bank capability
That allows the existing local gain control to be used in conjuction with a distant fader rack.
Sorry to harp on, but your vision is sooo close to being completely right (imho!)
Great work Don!
Almost exactly right in the feature set with the exception (in my tunnel visioned opinion) - remote active fader bank capability
That allows the existing local gain control to be used in conjuction with a distant fader rack.
Sorry to harp on, but your vision is sooo close to being completely right (imho!)
Great work Don!
hakanai
Well-known member
Wait I am not clear on what you are after. I reread you last post as well and I realized it never really clicked what you are envisioning as an ad-on board. You want a board with a fader and....(insert missing feature here). Is it a master section thing or a channel thing?alexc said:I've said my piece before
Almost exactly right in the feature set with the exception (in my tunnel visioned opinion) - remote active fader bank capability
That allows the existing local gain control to be used in conjuction with a distant fader rack.
Sorry to harp on, but your vision is sooo close to being completely right (imho!)
Great work Don!
don
I'm not sure I know either!
So I'll describe the end result rather than how it might fit into the work you've already done, which is just fine.
The end result would be a rack mixer with a remote fader bank, like the neve and now the purple.
The fader bank simply has a mute, solo and fader per channel and a summed stereo bus with a mute.
That's it really.
Anyway - sorry to distract your thread, I shouldn't post late at night.
Cheers
So I'll describe the end result rather than how it might fit into the work you've already done, which is just fine.
The end result would be a rack mixer with a remote fader bank, like the neve and now the purple.
The fader bank simply has a mute, solo and fader per channel and a summed stereo bus with a mute.
That's it really.
Anyway - sorry to distract your thread, I shouldn't post late at night.
Cheers
hakanai
Well-known member
Not a distraction at all! Thinking about this stuff keeps my mind fresh. I have spent too long drudging through the BOM and layout of this center section, so these kinds of things are good.alexc said:I'm not sure I know either!
So I'll describe the end result rather than how it might fit into the work you've already done, which is just fine.
The end result would be a rack mixer with a remote fader bank, like the neve and now the purple.
The fader bank simply has a mute, solo and fader per channel and a summed stereo bus with a mute.
That's it really.
Anyway - sorry to distract your thread, I shouldn't post late at night.
Cheers
The short answer to what you want is, you can already do that! Well, all except the solo. Long throw faders are going to need there own panel anyway. How far away can they go? I'm not really sure but it should be a reasonable length, 3 foot seems reasonable. The mute can be wired as a panel mount switch off of the same leads as the fader. Solo gets trickier, but I suppose it is doable. You will simply have to hang a bus and drop on resistors off the switches. Honestly the whole thing is designed to be hacked and customized however you want.
Don
i,
seems like a couple of the links to schematics on the 1st page are down.. where they replaced with the later drawings? I specifically wanted to check out the schematics for the channels DOA fader buffers, as I'm trying to decide if I should breadboard them myself, or wait for the PCBs to be ready and see what other cool features I can use with my mark 3 input boards.
thanks
sean
seems like a couple of the links to schematics on the 1st page are down.. where they replaced with the later drawings? I specifically wanted to check out the schematics for the channels DOA fader buffers, as I'm trying to decide if I should breadboard them myself, or wait for the PCBs to be ready and see what other cool features I can use with my mark 3 input boards.
thanks
sean
hakanai
Well-known member
Links look fine to me, but here is the address of the schematic:
http://hakanairecording.com/mixerpics/markVpics/Stereotype-5.pdf
http://hakanairecording.com/mixerpics/markVpics/Stereotype-5.pdf
pucho812
Well-known member
I hate when people say summing mixer, it's redundant. As for a diy option lets go over what is really needed VS want vs cost etc.
We know we need a monitor module, one that can accept different input sources control volume and switch speakers. It would be ideal if we could have separate volumes for each speaker but not 100% necessary. Do we need talk back? if so where would it go?
We know we need an input module, it should have panning and volume control, yes aux sends would be nice but how many? What are we trying to drive the cost up to? We also know we need mute and solo. Maybe we should have a direct out for recording and do we really want some busses? Considering that modern software no longer requires us really need a large format analog console, we can get away with a small format mixer. Say 16 channels?
From there, most of us have mic pre's and the like so I don't consider them necessary. To be honest if you ask me as the world progresses all we really need is a monitor section and we can mix in the box. Does it sound good sure, is it the same as analog no. Will people notice a difference? in this day and age I highly doubt anyone will notice. Analog has always been a rich mans game, consoles in the hundreds of thousands, etc. Since we are DIY We should do affordable. If you ask me that means just a monitor controller and mixing in the box, or tracking with a rack of pre's but hey I am sure I am the minority
We know we need a monitor module, one that can accept different input sources control volume and switch speakers. It would be ideal if we could have separate volumes for each speaker but not 100% necessary. Do we need talk back? if so where would it go?
We know we need an input module, it should have panning and volume control, yes aux sends would be nice but how many? What are we trying to drive the cost up to? We also know we need mute and solo. Maybe we should have a direct out for recording and do we really want some busses? Considering that modern software no longer requires us really need a large format analog console, we can get away with a small format mixer. Say 16 channels?
From there, most of us have mic pre's and the like so I don't consider them necessary. To be honest if you ask me as the world progresses all we really need is a monitor section and we can mix in the box. Does it sound good sure, is it the same as analog no. Will people notice a difference? in this day and age I highly doubt anyone will notice. Analog has always been a rich mans game, consoles in the hundreds of thousands, etc. Since we are DIY We should do affordable. If you ask me that means just a monitor controller and mixing in the box, or tracking with a rack of pre's but hey I am sure I am the minority
electrisizer
Well-known member
if you want a monitor controller with some ins and outs you can go cheap and passive like this: http://new-old-sound.com/products/20-mcone
to integrate outboard - a console is way more fun than connecting all direct to your DAW interface.
...and for the busses: connect your compressors to the console busses and you can reach it with one pushbottom. this way you can either do parallel or serial compression. i can fast A/B my hardware compressors to choose the right one.
i get phase problems when i try this ITB AND i need to go through my AD/DA converter again with carefull watching of I/O levels not to clip...
its a pleasure to have some FX hanging on consoles aux and reach it again with one switch.
my recording structure is:
all preamps go straight to DAWs AD interface to record pure (no dynamics no eq)
all tracks are reduced to some groups
all groups go to DA interface feeding hardware EQs and my current console with all that outboard
... so this console is not a front end console for recording but a line mixing console. its more ore less a very comfortable patchbay because depending on time for a project i dont use faders for having better recall...
i know - this is no more classic integration of a console in a studio but my results are far better going this way.
to integrate outboard - a console is way more fun than connecting all direct to your DAW interface.
...and for the busses: connect your compressors to the console busses and you can reach it with one pushbottom. this way you can either do parallel or serial compression. i can fast A/B my hardware compressors to choose the right one.
i get phase problems when i try this ITB AND i need to go through my AD/DA converter again with carefull watching of I/O levels not to clip...
its a pleasure to have some FX hanging on consoles aux and reach it again with one switch.
my recording structure is:
all preamps go straight to DAWs AD interface to record pure (no dynamics no eq)
all tracks are reduced to some groups
all groups go to DA interface feeding hardware EQs and my current console with all that outboard
... so this console is not a front end console for recording but a line mixing console. its more ore less a very comfortable patchbay
because depending on time for a project i dont use faders for having better recall...i know - this is no more classic integration of a console in a studio
but my results are far better going this way.
