Cadac vs Calrec

[SIXTYNINER]

Hi
Just to talk a bit about differences - pro & cons ,
personal opinions,etc...
of the Cadac and Calrec mixing consoles
thanks till now for any post

 

[ruffrecords]

Back in the 70s,  Cadac and Calrec were Neve's nearest competitors; Cadac in the studio market and Calrec in the broadcast market. Calrec followed Neve design philosophy more closely with transformers everywhere (possibly because of their superior RFI perfomance). Cadac were one of the first major manufacturers to use electronic balancing. In the mid 70s, when I was at Neve, I attended the APRS studio engineers course. One of the speakers was Clive Green, MD of Cadac. I vividly remember that evening having a lively discussion with him about the pros and cons of transformers. What was even better was one of the other speakers was George Martin.

Cheers

Ian

 

[SIXTYNINER]

Back in the 70s,  Cadac and Calrec were Neve's nearest competitors; Cadac in the studio market and Calrec in the broadcast market. Calrec followed Neve design philosophy more closely with transformers everywhere (possibly because of their superior RFI perfomance). Cadac were one of the first major manufacturers to use electronic balancing. In the mid 70s, when I was at Neve, I attended the APRS studio engineers course. One of the speakers was Clive Green, MD of Cadac. I vividly remember that evening having a lively discussion with him about the pros and cons of transformers. What was even better was one of the other speakers was George Martin.

Cheers

Ian

Thanks for all nice info Ian !
.... Mr George Martin what a honor....

...and seem the battle between transformers and ic it's still more than alive....
personally i prefer  transformers for "pro"  (& diy too , of course), ...... ic better for consumer
cheers

 

[ruffrecords]

Thanks for all nice info Ian !
.... Mr George Martin what a honor....

...and seem the battle between transformers and ic it's still more than alive....
personally i prefer  transformers for "pro" , ...... ic better for consumer
cheers

Back the 70s the debate was between transformer and transistor - the excellent ICs we have today had not yet been invented, not even the NE5532 (which I think was called the TDA1024 when it first came out of Philips).

Cheers

Ian

 

[pucho812]

back in the 70's there was that pesky 741....

I always heard that calrec was started by ex neve employees.  I also heard  their first client was the beeb(BBC). But I have never been able to confirm that.

 

[ricardo]

I always heard that calrec was started by ex neve employees.  I also heard  their first client was the beeb(BBC). But I have never been able to confirm that.

Ple aase!!  That's an insult to any ex Calrec people.

In da late 70's & early 80's, the BBC would only buy desks from 3 makers, Calrec, Neve & SSL and the last only cos the automation.  This is sorta before AMEK moved into the Local Radio market.

Of course N**e wasn't quite as good and I only bring them in cos they were on the BBC list.  8)

Cadac and the other rif-raf were Music desks.  There's a huge difference in performance between a Broadcast Desk of that period and the Music desks.  eg a Calrec desk did not hum.

Being young & naive, I thought there shouldn't be much difference cos the circuitry was often similar.  It was talking the BBC engineers who commissioned the first big desk I had a hand in that enlightened me.

As always, it is attention to detail that makes the difference.

Abba studios started the trend for music studios to use the far more expensive Broadcast desks.

History

In the late 60's Clem Beaumont, my mike mentor,  made a Debenham, Robinson & Stebbings mike which was a DIY attempt at C12.  He showed it to Bernhard Wiengartner who did C12 for AKG when the HiFi show was at Harrogate and who said good things about it.

This led to Calder Recording and the microphone business with mainly DIY gear.  They were 5 friends with similar interests working for the Electricity Board.  When one of them was made redundant, they decided to all leave & do this full time.

Their big break was when Ken Farrar, my electronics mentor, persuaded the BBC to let them do the 'new' Outside Broadcast vans.  The Proms were recorded & broadcast from these vehicles for more than a decade.

They later took on the Soundfield mike ... which is how I got involved ... though I did more mixing desk work than microphones. Michael Gerzon felt only 3 companies could make the beast .. the other 2 being SHURE & Schoeps. 

 

[pucho812]

not trying to insult, but that was what I heard. Thanks for the clarification 

 

[ruffrecords]

not trying to insult, but that was what I heard. Thanks for the clarification 

More of an insult to Neve engineers I would think! No Neve engineer worth his salt would put is name the the shoddy gear they made at Calwreck

And before anybody mentions Toft Audio, that was started by Neve production personnel.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Rob Flinn]

In da late 70's & early 80's, the BBC would only buy desks from 3 makers, Calrec, Neve & SSL and the last only cos the automation.  This is sorta before AMEK moved into the Local Radio market.

Where do Audix fit in then ?

 

[mrclunk]

We've an analogue Calrec Q series from the 90's.
Like the others say, very high broadcast build quality and can take a lot of abuse without missing a beat.
I've had PSU's go down and you get a polite indicator lamp to inform you as it chugs on.  Our's has 4 redundant power units.
Tons of headroom on channels and buses. Universal inputs that seem to accept anything you feed them, balanced inserts and modular so easy to fix/mod.

As it's a broadcasts desk you might not get things like tape and fx returns which i was slightly concerned about initially, but you find ways round that sort of stuff.                 
Also i think most (all?) Calrecs are custom made so get the documentation if you buy one!
Sound wise, it sounds great because it doesn't sound.

The groups on ours are little noisy for some reason, reminded me i need to look into it. I probably didn't wire the patch bay correctly...

 

[ruffrecords]

Where do Audix fit in then ?

Someone mentioned Calrec, Neve and SSL as the the main three but SSL did not bring out their first big desk until 1976 so I do not think they were one of the three. I think the third one was AUdix:

http://www.orbem.co.uk/gp/gp0.htm

Cheers

Ian

 

[ln76d]

Yeap, exactly it was Audix, Neve and Calrec.

 

[pucho812]

\
And before anybody mentions Toft Audio, that was started by Neve production personnel.

Cheers

Ian

I used to work for toft, you are going to have to explain this one...

 

[ruffrecords]

I used to work for toft, you are going to have to explain this one...

My bad, I meant Tweed. Apologies - minor brain fart - in my defence I can only say that is what happens when you reach 66.

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

Console boyz throw down....    ;D ;D

JR

 

[pucho812]

My bad, I meant Tweed. Apologies - minor brain fart - in my defence I can only say that is what happens when you reach 66.

Cheers

Ian

I understand. You always had me falling off the chair on that one.  If former neve guys would have been involved with toft, I am sure they would have been more mechanically sound going out the first rodeo and not needing 3 versions to have it completely stable.

 

[ricardo]

Sorry Ian.  Ex Calrec can never resist a dig at ex Neve.  8)

Someone mentioned Calrec, Neve and SSL as the the main three but SSL did not bring out their first big desk until 1976 so I do not think they were one of the three. I think the third one was AUdix:

That's correct but I got involved in the late 70s.  By that time we were moving out of the small Local Radio market and concentrating on the big TV desks.

SSL at that time was considered not the same quality level but the automation was seen  as the way ahead.  We got a big order for PPM cards as 'spares' and were later miffed to find their destination was for another maker who's PPMs didn't meet spec 

The spec. of a BBC desk at that time seems really easy until you read the fine print which specifies under "all operating condtions".  One of the commissioning tests on a 72 channel desk is feeding a signal through all 72 channels in series and checking if it met 'spec'.  There were inevitable arguments over what knobs could be twiddled under "all operating conditions".  Bit difficult to meet even 0.1% THD with 72 channels of HF EQ in series turned fully up  ;D

Our contribution to early automation was the Assignable ...  I suppose what we would today call a "Mixing Surface" controlling a huge rack with 72 channels.  I worked on the current steering VCA for this which became the main 'mixer' for the 'conventional' M-series.

http://www.orbem.co.uk/gp/gp0.htm

Thanks for this.  I recognise some L-series (black) and M-series (blue) in the pics.  Did N**e have a house colour in those days?

Abba bought a big M-series for their new Stockholm studio.  I think it was our first 'Music' desk but all the desks were/are custom.  The deal including a couple of Mk4 Soundfields.  This eventually led to Stock, Aitken & Waterman producing a huge number of Top 10 hits using only the Soundfield mike .. for which I can never forgive them.  Just reading their list of hits makes me cringe 

AMS bought both Calrec & Neve and moved Calrec to the wrong side of the Pennines just after I left.  It didn't work out in Lancashire.  Steve Jagger and some of the original owners did a management buyout and moved it back to God's own county.  They've gone from strength to strength and are still in Hebden Bridge.  But they left the microphones behind.

What I'd really like to know is Amek's history.  I rather like some of their stuff.  But I've been a beach bum for a lo...ong time.

 

[Slenderchap]

What I'd really like to know is Amek's history.  I rather like some of their stuff.  But I've been a beach bum for a lo...ong time.

A summary of it is here:
http://www.langley-design.com/2011History.htm

Colin
www.audiomaintenance.com

 

[peterc]

So how did Raindirk fit into all of this?

I heard (sigh) that they were a bunch of ex-Neve guys.....

We used a bunch of their consoles at the South African Broadcast Corp in the 80s

 

[ruffrecords]

Sorry Ian.  Ex Calrec can never resist a dig at ex Neve.  8)

Hey, no problem. We all had a great time, designed some great desks and met a few celebrities.

That's correct but I got involved in the late 70s.  By that time we were moving out of the small Local Radio market and concentrating on the big TV desks.

You are right, the local radio market was small. I was there when Rupert designed the CRC - marketed as the compact radio console but internally called the cheap radio console. The mechanics were more akin to a 500 series module; a single sheet  of  bent steel for  the inter module screen and controls support plus the usual aluminium front panel. The rear connector was an edge connector instead of the usual two part connector. This was aimed more at the US market which was way  bigger.

The spec. of a BBC desk at that time seems really easy until you read the fine print which specifies under "all operating condtions".  One of the commissioning tests on a 72 channel desk is feeding a signal through all 72 channels in series and checking if it met 'spec'.  There were inevitable arguments over what knobs could be twiddled under "all operating conditions".  Bit difficult to meet even 0.1% THD with 72 channels of HF EQ in series turned fully up  ;D

This seems to be typical of broadcasters; I think they are just a tad more tech savvy than recording studios. At Neve in the 70s we had a huge or from the South African Broadcasting Corporation (SABC). It was nearly over by the time I got there but apparently there was a lot of wrangling over the conditions under which measurements were made.

Abba bought a big M-series for their new Stockholm studio.  I think it was our first 'Music' desk but all the desks were/are custom.

And before that they bought a custom Neve  ;D

AMS bought both Calrec & Neve and moved Calrec to the wrong side of the Pennines just after I left.  It didn't work out in Lancashire.  Steve Jagger and some of the original owners did a management buyout and moved it back to God's own county.  They've gone from strength to strength and are still in Hebden Bridge.  But they left the microphones behind.

By the time I got to Neve (74) it was owned by Bonochord who made hearing aids! and also own an instrument hire company. Rupert was still there though. Years after I left it was bought by Siemens and then, as you say, bought along with Calrec by AMS. Rupert is still doing his thing in Texas. Also, a bunch of design engineers joined Tony Larking in Letchworth to design many of the TLA products.


Cheers

Ian