Chinese-Clone Audio Transformers

[gyraf]

It had to happen sooner or later:

http://www.elc-electric.com/index.php?c=category&id=9

Would be interesting to see what they can do these days, but sad that they seem to focus on copying..

/Jakob E.

 

[rock soderstrom]

It had to happen sooner or later:

http://www.elc-electric.com/index.php?c=category&id=9

Would be interesting to see what they can do these days, but sad that they seem to focus on copying..

/Jakob E.

What is the difference to Neumann and Shure microphone fakes that are so popular here?

They steal, here even without a trademark, just a reference to the company they are stealing from, actually rather harmless.

The rapid economic expansion of the Chinese is based on the one hand on their motivation to work and their ability to learn, and on the other hand on their unscrupulous stealing and copying of intellectual property without paying for it.

This applies to all industries, now it is the turn of the audio-transformer manufacturers, they are not the first and they will not be the last.

So, screw morality and let's keep sawing the branch we're sitting on! The main thing is that there's a Neumann badge on my fake microphone.

 

[OneRoomStudio]

It does make me think of lots of other examples of this kind of thing happening long before China got involved (Jensen/Cinemag, OEP/Vigortronix, Carnhill/Sowter, etc, etc...). I think it's fair to say that companies try to copy each other all the time. The real test will be to see if these transformers are as good as what they claim. If they are, great! Even Jensen was acquired by Radial a while ago, and from what I understand, have changed some of their manufacturing practices. Is Jensen even "Jensen" anymore? As long as they make transformers that measure well, I'll keep buying them.

For me, the much bigger problem is the question of HOW are these Chinese prices so low? I saw a pair of similar Jensen-style 10k:10k transformers on AliExpress for $15 for a pair! I hate to think of what kinds of labor practices and/or environmental impact lies behind getting the price that low.

 

[john12ax7]

Even Jensen was acquired by Radial a while ago, and from what I understand, have changed some of their manufacturing practices. Is Jensen even "Jensen" anymore? As long as they make transformers that measure well, I'll keep buying them.

Is there any more info on what if anything has changed? Have not used or tried a post radial jensen yet.

 

[Brian Roth]

Is there any more info on what if anything has changed? Have not used or tried a post radial jensen yet.

I'm curious as well.

Bri

 

[OneRoomStudio]

Is there any more info on what if anything has changed? Have not used or tried a post radial jensen yet.

I heard that they bought some new machines and automated more of the processes, but that’s all I know. To be clear, I’m not saying they’re any worse now, just that they’ve changed the process a bit. Like I said - as long as they measure properly, I’m happy.

I will say that I recently bought an “off menu” transformer from them, and they were not particularly well equipped to handle the sale of a single transformer to an individual. I get it - that’s not how they make their money, but they used to be better at that.

 

[ruffrecords]

For me, the much bigger problem is the question of HOW are these Chinese prices so low? I saw a pair of similar Jensen-style 10k:10k transformers on AliExpress for $15 for a pair! I hate to think of what kinds of labor practices and/or environmental impact lies behind getting the price that low.

For the last 20 years of the last century I was designing electronic products that were manufactured in quantity in China. I never visited myself but several colleagues spent a lot of time out there as the products moved into volume production. When I asked a similar question, this is what they told me. China is a vast country with a population of over 1 billion people. Only a small fraction of them work in the electronics manufacturing industry. Very large numbers live in scattered communities of small villages on very low incomes. In their culture, a young girl is expected to bring a dowry when she marries. By working for a year or two in Shenzen they can save enough money for a substantial dowry. While working there they are provided with accomodation and food plus a wage (very small by western standards most of wich they send home). After a year or so they return to their home and settle down as relatively wealthy people.

Cheers

Ian

 

[warpie]

I might be wrong by I believe that the Chinese "goverment" funds bussinesses? If that's the case it can probably explain the very low prices.

Wages are one thing but parts,equipment,etc still cost money.

 

[Tubetec]

Ive met a few young upwardly mobile Chinese people online with fairly good written english ,
Typically they do a weeks work in a factory , then college in the evenings .
The dorms they live in run 24 hours a day , the lights never go out and they have to be mindful at all times people are asleep .
They have to be careful about what they say online too as there monitored ,
Once or twice it seemed the nature of the convo we had got the attention of security and they had to leave suddenly .

 

[cyrano]

I might be wrong by I believe that the Chinese "goverment" funds bussinesses? If that's the case it can probably explain the very low prices.

Wages are one thing but parts,equipment,etc still cost money.

Energy, transport and some basic parts are very cheap to buy for Chinese companies. Coupled to low wages, it allows them to be very competitive. That also means it's easy to start up a company, so a lot of them fail. And those usually are the ones making the junk products.

The CCP has other worries, atm. Banks, car makers and construction companies are failing by the dozens. The construction companies because their buildings collapse, the banks because they bankrolled all of this and car manufacturers because they bet heavily on the EV car market and can't sell their vehicles. Due to the failure of construction companies, millions of Chinese have lost their money and will need to pay off loans on non-existing apartments.

Needless to say these failures drag along many other companies, even internationally...

 

[gyraf]

I was just made aware of this company, who is probably the source of most chinese "Pro Audio" type transformers: http://www.zgdes.com/sitemap.html

Still interested in knowing about their real abilities, not just their cloning of exterior appearance

/Jakob E.

 

[Dylan W]

Not sure what the price point is, but I would think the big question is the quality of the lams. Nickel price seems to be most of the cost of pro audio transformers. I have a hard time believing there’s massive arbitrage in the price of nickel between the US and China. I’ve seen $10 “permalloy” 600:10k transformers on AliExpress, but I don’t see how the lam quality (and thus inductance and distortion) could be competitive with more expensive transformers. IIRC, some members have measured cheap Chinese transformers and found them to be lacking.

 

[soliloqueen]

Here's a video from the inside of the factory from Taobao:
View attachment 20240322_8ffa2f1d9cac59f2_454110504830_102341772187527_published_mp4_264_hd_taobao.mp4
The assembly is more or less fully automated.

 

[My3gger]

Not sure what the price point is, but I would think the big question is the quality of the lams. Nickel price seems to be most of the cost of pro audio transformers. I have a hard time believing there’s massive arbitrage in the price of nickel between the US and China. I’ve seen $10 “permalloy” 600:10k transformers on AliExpress, but I don’t see how the lam quality (and thus inductance and distortion) could be competitive with more expensive transformers. IIRC, some members have measured cheap Chinese transformers and found them to be lacking.

Some of their cheap permalloy transformers don't have mumetal can, cores are small, companies are not investing in expensive advertising, labor is cheap, customer doesn't pay for famous name, etc. A friend bought two DVMs costing 25eur in China, the same model costs ~45eur+vat in the EU...

 

[OneRoomStudio]

I ordered a 10k:10k model from AliExpress. We’ll see what it looks like and how it tests when it shows up.

 

[MidnightArrakis]

Even Jensen was acquired by Radial a while ago, and from what I understand, have changed some of their manufacturing practices. Is Jensen even "Jensen" anymore?

>> I recently created a 3D CAD-model of a JENSEN transformer for a small project I am working on and I needed some additional and obscure mechanical details in order for me to complete my model, so I contacted their Technical Support for the information I needed. Even after several contacting attempts, my messages/requests went unanswered. However, after sending yet another message to their Technical Support that included a comment of mine stating "Is JENSEN even 'JENSEN' anymore?", I then >> IMMEDIATELY << received a response back from RADIAL Engineering with everything that I needed!!! Hows abouts dem apples???..........

Here's my 3D CAD-model of the JENSEN "JT-MB-DPC" microphone-splitting transformer:



/

 

[FunkyTek]

oh Gee. How soon was the buy-out? maybe they are still in transition mode. Good that Radial came through with the info.
I have been through that a couple of times and it can be very disruptive. Support, sales, and marketing are usually the first to be consolidated, for efficiency and for projecting a more unified corporate front. Hopefully they will be hands-off, where it counts.

Your model looks great. Are you using Solids?

-grego

 

[soliloqueen]

I was just made aware of this company, who is probably the source of most chinese "Pro Audio" type transformers: http://www.zgdes.com/sitemap.html

Still interested in knowing about their real abilities, not just their cloning of exterior appearance

/Jakob E.

our sample 2503 from them was equivalent to the original one, (though the original 2503 is kind of mediocre IMO, so that's not that hard.) i believe they are the OEM for a large brand that recently moved to overseas manufacturing, so it makes sense they'd have this transformer down pretty solid.

I am in development on some made in the US rack gear, and myself and my EE on the project did a lot of testing. The transformers, for preamps at least, are pretty solid. We tested some jensen equivalents and the API equivalents and found their performance reasonable. At the end of the day, there was no real advantage over UTM, with which we already had a relationship, so we went with UTM.

 

[FunkyTek]

I might be wrong by I believe that the Chinese "goverment" funds bussinesses? If that's the case it can probably explain the very low prices.

Wages are one thing but parts,equipment,etc still cost money.

Not sure if they still do this, but China had a very interesting methodology for encouraging new businesses.
They have incubation parks, where a new electronics business can live rent-free and have much of the support network provided. For instance, with semiconductor design, one of the biggest costs is licensing of software. This can be 10s of millions a year for even a small group. The goverment becomes a bigger purchaser so can negotiate better pricing.
Once the companies hit a given profitability target, they have to move out of the incubator and support themselves.
At least this is how it was described to me.
I think it is a brilliant idea.
By contrast, the US hands that money over to huge corporations that are already making record profits. Because they of course hand back funds to the politicians that make that happen. very non-brilliant and short sighted

 

[soliloqueen]

Not sure if they still do this, but China had a very interesting methodology for encouraging new businesses.
They have incubation parks, where a new electronics business can live rent-free and have much of the support network provided. For instance, with semiconductor design, one of the biggest costs is licensing of software. This can be 10s of millions a year for even a small group. The goverment becomes a bigger purchaser so can negotiate better pricing.
Once the companies hit a given profitability target, they have to move out of the incubator and support themselves.
At least this is how it was described to me.
I think it is a brilliant idea.
By contrast, the US hands that money over to huge corporations that are already making record profits. Because they of course hand back funds to the politicians that make that happen. very non-brilliant and short sighted

i feel like america culturally has lost sight of the basic idea that people are an investment, and usually a good one. this is true across the political spectrum