Curiousity about the British educational system

[Consul]

I've been spending more time than is good for me watching British comedies and panel shows. Time and again, references are made to the British educational system. I have yet to find a web site that lays any of it out plainly. As far as I can tell:

GCSEs are high school standardized tests, as far as I can tell. We have those here. Also, as far as I can tell, your "first, second, and third degrees" are a bachelors, masters, and PhD? Am I close?

Somewhere in there, there's constant mention of O- and A-Levels, and it's really those I have no grasp of. Can anyone fill me in? Maybe I'd get more of the jokes if I did.

Thanks for the help!

 

[lofi]

age 16, o (ordinary) level
age 18 a (advanced) level
age 21 degree (first second and third are types of pass, same as a,b,c+ etc)
phd after the degree as is masters

gcse (general certificate of secondary education) sort of like 0 levels but go further down ...

 

[rob_gould]

[quote author="lofi"]age 16, o (ordinary) level
age 18 a (advanced) level
age 21 degree (first second and third are types of pass, same as a,b,c+ etc)
phd after the degree as is masters

gcse (general certificate of secondary education) sort of like 0 levels but go further down ...[/quote]
yep this is pretty much it. O level you really won't hear referred to these days cos O levels have ben superceded by GCSEs. These are the exams that you study for from 14 - 16 and take age 16 (obviously)

A levels are still the current exams for 18 year olds (generally - there are other options for vocational courses) and you pick 3 or 4 options aged 16 to study for these for 2 years.

degrees, masters and phd are prety much as you've described. degree 18 - 21 and then more study from there depending on how much of a masochist you are :grin:

 

[Nat]

Let's not forget the glorious AS and A2 system they've introduced in the past few years!

You now have to take a complete set of exams at 16 in anything up to about 12 subjects (GCSEs), a complete set of exams at 17 in anything up to 5 subjects (AS levels) and then a complete set of exams at the age of 18 in anything up to 4 subjects.

Isn't it wonderful. Instead of learning about the subjects we're interested in we just learn how to pass exams. I love it, love it, love it.

 

[barclaycon]

Consul
One of the fundamental parts of the British Eduction System was dismantled in the late 70's. It was called the 11plus.
This was an exam that you took just before leaving Junior school at age 11 (hence the name) which determined whether you went to Grammar School or Secondary School. The difference being that the Grammar Schools had a more intensive curriculum which was designed to send pupils on a more academic path and possibly University, whereas the Secondary Schools were not so intensive and were geared more towards practical subjects and learning a trade.
It kind of meant that brainy kids went to Grammar school and not so clever kids to Secondary school. It worked really well.
But you know, so-called liberal thinking types were offended by this kind of profiling. So it was changed and now we have these dull, grey education establishments called Comprehensive Schools where the overall standard is lower. I think they are partly responsible for the parlous state our education system is in and in the kind of young people that are on the street today.
Kids who have no hobbies, no ambition, no sense of right or wrong.
That magazine front cover just published in the States showing an ignorant hoody is pretty much spot on.

Worried parents now spend a lot of money to send thier kids to private schools. I've even heard stories about people moving house to an area where there is a reasonable school. Before when there were Grammar schools it didn't make any difference if you were rich, because clever children were nurtured. Now we've got government ministers dismantling a system which they benifited from.
Oh and by the way, I went to Secondary School - and I still think I got a better education than this Comprehensive system. (And I made it to University).

 

[barclaycon]

On final thing.
It used to be that you could judge how well a pupil had done by how many O and A levels they had achieved. But even that has been diluted to the stage where it is impossible to tell.
Social engineering. Playing politics with education......

 

[Consul]

Thanks, guys. Now I know a little more about why Paul Merton gets teased for his "Metalwork CSE Ungraded". :green:

In my current electrical engineering track (I plan to study DSP), I'm looking to get my bachelors in 2011 (that's not going full-time the entire time, though), and the possibility is open to continue with a masters. I'm maintaining a 4.0 GPA at my current school, which is straight As. I'm still undecided on whether I want to go for my masters, but if I do, I'd like to take it overseas.

 

[lofi]

[quote author="Consul"]
In my current electrical engineering track (I plan to study DSP), I'm looking to get my bachelors in 2011 (that's not going full-time the entire time, though), and the possibility is open to continue with a masters. I'm maintaining a 4.0 GPA at my current school, which is straight As. I'm still undecided on whether I want to go for my masters, but if I do, I'd like to take it overseas.[/quote]

in the tradition of james bond fims, think of fat southern policemen

'Speak English Boi'

 

[Consul]

Sorry, the only language I know is American. :green:

Doing my masters in Europe is a dream, but I may as well try working towards it, right?

 

[lofi]

[quote author="lofi"]

in the tradition of james bond fims, think of fat southern AMERICAN policemen

'Speak English Boi'[/quote]

does that help? :green:

education is education, but travel is good, have fun and good luck

 

[Consul]

Given that I weigh, well, quite a few more stone than I should, I might want to lose weight before crossing the pond.

 

[SSLtech]

The 'alphabet soup' explained a little:

GCE = "General Certificate of Education" -The so called "O-level".

O-levels were the standard way of telling that someone had achieved a satisfactory level of education in a given subject at age sixteen. A pass was an A, B or C. -A 'D' or under was a fail.

You would leave school and say -for example- "I have three 'O'levels" meaning that you had passing grades in three subjects at 'O' level. -You may have taken five and failed two, or you may have taken three and passed them all. Some people might want to know about the particular grades, but the NUMBER of passes is always important.

I think that the average number of GCEs (O-levels) and/or CSE passes would probably be about three per pupil. -There was no such thing a 'graduating' school in a homogenous manner: you left school at age sixteen if you wanted, with as many or as few qualifications as you could achieve.

After a while, it was determined that 'Comprehensive' schools should allow kids to take exams with essentially no failing grades. -The 'CSE' was added.

CSE = Certificate of Secondary education. -A grade '1' was equivalnt to a GCE 'C' grade (minimum pass level). -Grades went down from there, 2 through I-don't-know-what... my school refused to have anything to do with CSE's, so I never learned about the various grades.

Eventually, the Guvernment decided that this 'two-stream' system was not serving anyone's interest, so they 'merged' the two into the "GCSE".

GCSE = "General Certificate of Secondary Education". -It was a 'dumbing down' of the GCE O-level to CSE levels of ease, made so that there would no longer be an 'elitist' stream to passing qualifications. The GCE and CSE were 'merged' and replaced by the everyman 'CGSE'.

There used to be 'A' levels ("Advanced") and -beyond that- 'S' ("Special") levels. -Now I think the 'S' level is no more, and the A level has become the 'AS'... no more difficult than the old A level, but removing the 'elitist' S-level. -Can anyone confirm this for me?

As for me, I took ten O-levels and failed three. -At the time they were subjects in which I had NO interest (History, for example). I did begin A-level classes in 4 subjects since I was too young to leave school, but I got a job in a multi studio complex instead of continuing past the first year of 'A' levels.

I think that the attempts to 'homogenise' education has been one of the biggest disasters ever. -What drove me, encouraged me and inspired me was the singular attention which I received from those who were interested in MY interests, and to whom I owe a lifelong debt.

Had I grown up in the USA, I doubt that I'd be doing anything like the same thing... -it's hard to be sure of course, but that's my deeply-held suspicion.
[quote author="barclaycon"]I've even heard stories about people moving house to an area where there is a reasonable school.[/quote]

This is a dominant factor in house-prices in the US. My wife and I are discussing a possible move in about seven or eight years, since our 4-year old lives in a great 'primary' school district, but there's a much better 'high-school' district nearby...

The UK is just acting like the 51st state and coming nicely into line! :wink:

I was in the first year AFTER the 11-plus. -I skipped the local comprehensive school because the local grammar school was 'voluntary-aided' meaning it was PARTLY Guv'mint-funded and partly self-funded... so it could still be 'selective'. -They were heavily academic, and one of the teachers was in the Guinness book of records for having the most 'S' levels (remember them?) of anyone in Britain.

Last Tuesday I had the immense pleasure of spending about an hour pretty much alone in the company of Sir Ken Robinson, who has made a career in the analysis of education. -in fact it turns out that his brother still lives less than a mile away from my old grammar school... -He has some fantastic observations on the British education system and its present issues.

Sir Ken Robinson on education and creativity.

Anyhow, the long and the short of it is that I was extremely lucky to have been able to 'fiddle' into a grammar school after the 11-plus, and that schooling meant that I met the exact people who ended up inspiring me and steering me to this exact point in my life... -If I'd never sat in front of the class 'boffin' who was 'into electronics', I'd have never seen the "build your own fuzz-box' article which led to me getting addicted to electronics, -in fact addicted to DIY...
[quote author="lofi"]

in the tradition of james bond fims, think of fat southern AMERICAN policemen

'Speak English Boi'[/quote]
I believe that the character was from Louisiana... an off-duty sheriff or something... 'Live & let Die' was the movie.

'Boi... -you *IS* uuuugly!!!'

Keith

 

[rob_gould]

[quote author="SSLtech"]
[quote author="lofi"]

in the tradition of james bond fims, think of fat southern AMERICAN policemen

'Speak English Boi'[/quote]
I believe that the character was from Louisiana... an off-duty sheriff or something... 'Live & let Die' was the movie.

'Boi... -you *IS* uuuugly!!!'

Keith[/quote]

Sheriff JW Pepper I believe :grin:

 

[SSLtech]

Yep... -I recall also that he and his wife got a cameo reprise in the next Bond movie as well; -"The man with the Golden Gun"...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=i8DwLUVdUis
followed by:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JmIiCkfXMIA

Keith

 

[lofi]

yep :green:

 

[barclaycon]

Keith,
That Ken Robinson thing was excellent. It was funny as well.
What a great guy.
I sometimes dispair as to what has happened to education. I think our generation was lucky in so much as the fundamental principles for developing creative thought were still in place. Now I look at the way kids are taught and wonder what kind of people will be making decisions in 10 years time.
Somebody said to me recently. 'Look at the people who are telling us all how to live. You wouldn't want to be like them would you ?'

 

[Consul]

I have a feeling this is one of those threads that will live on long, long after its original intent has been fulfilled. :green: :wink:

I thank everyone for their replies.