Dangers of AI

[cyrano]

He only had that kind of money after succeeding with his first startup.

Check your facts. His father was filthy rich. His mom isn't. And he played that every time he made a public appearance. His father owned an Aston Martin, several airplanes and even an emerald mine. I don't know if the things you hear from your propaganda machine include the rumour that Elon supported him financially, but I doubt that. Besides, when that "happened", Elon already was a billionaire.

Being successful is a bad thing?

If it's at the cost of others, yes. You can get lucky and win the lotto, but every selfmade millionaire I ever met was ready to kill everything in his path. Unless they inherited their fortune, of course.

When you sell part of your company in exchange for $$$, you also give up some control. Sounds like you made a mistake choosing an investment partner or failed to do your own due diligence. No one forced you to accept the offer of investment, right?

Your world seems simple. We were four equal partners. 1 and 2 were the original founders. 3 stepped in because we needed a 3rd person to set up the equivalent of an incorporated. I demanded the fourth one, because he had a lot of business sense.

Nr. 3 was all for the bank's investment. The two founding partners were slightly negative. Nr. 4 was all for it. So that was a bit of a problem. Took a while. Nr. 3 worked on my friend, nr. 2 'till he succumbed. So there we were, with half a million we had no immediate plans for.

Shortly after the investment, the bank told my partners they wanted to get rid of me. I warned my friend he would be next. He told me he was sure they couldn't run the company without the two of us. I was paranoid. Of course, he was next.

Nr.3 felt like the emperor of China. Finally!

Didn't last long. The entire staff talked to the bank. Nr. 3 out, or they would all leave the company. It wasn't hard at all to convince the bank. So he went.

I heard, years later, that he hanged himself.

The company still exists and is doing well. The bank just kept one activity: online sales of cartoon drawings. And that still gets me my dividend.

My friend moved to Norway.

Did you feel the same way when he enjoyed popularity from the political left?

Of course. There's very little difference between red and blue.

Laying off thousands to offshore or strip assets is one thing. Laying off dangerous subversive activists who aren't needed to run an efficient operation (one that isn't censoring and collaborating with gov to control narratives) is quite another. Anti-liberty activists aren't going to get any sympathy from people who value civil rights and Constitutional principles.

WTF are "ant-liberty activists" and "dangerous subversive activists" ? You mean unions?

Of course, as a weathered right-wing person, unions are bad. And, before you start throwing simple example from the era of Al Capone to my head, I'll admit that maffia infested unions are bad. You see were being a rabid anti-communist gets you?

Remember what happened to Musks plans in Germany? He figured that, since he was the richest man on the planet, he could easily bypass laws. I mean, he was so great that Germany should be glad to let him underpay his workers, pollute the area and avoid unions. A good thing the Germans never fell for his fairytale.

The Chinese will eat Tesla for breakfast. He knows that. I expect him to sell his shares soon. O, wait, he already sold a big bundle.

Still, I have some sympathy for Elon. He's got balls and he's good at telling stories and selling stuff to people. I'd hire him for a sales job if he was broke.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Nail hit on the head, hard, for me.

If that's your take (which I find laughably biased, political, and inaccurate), how did you feel when he was popular because of all the EV, solar, and battery stuff he has helped develop? Was he not a hero of the "green" left prior to his buying Twitter?

 

[AnalogPackrat]

Check your facts. His father was filthy rich. His mom isn't. And he played that every time he made a public appearance. His father owned an Aston Martin, several airplanes and even an emerald mine.

Yes, I'm aware that his father made a successful investment in an emerald mine. Was that bad? From what I can see he didn't get along with his father all that well after his parents split, though he may have gotten a $20k investment from him for his first startup.

$20k is tiny. At that time (mid 90s) I was renting a 25 year old 2BR-2Ba apartment in Sunnyvale for $1300/mo. I couldn't afford to live closer to work (Palo Alto) because that would mean 200-500/mo more for less space. So $20k wouldn't pay for housing for a year, much less food, utilities, etc.

I don't know if the things you hear from your propaganda machine include the rumour that Elon supported him financially, but I doubt that. Besides, when that "happened", Elon already was a billionaire.

Never heard any of that from sources I've read.

If it's at the cost of others, yes. You can get lucky and win the lotto, but every selfmade millionaire I ever met was ready to kill everything in his path. Unless they inherited their fortune, of course.

Winning the lotto is at the expense of all the other ticket buyers who lost. The world is not a fantasy utopia. I'm sorry you can't handle the reality that humanity is not and never will be "perfect." There will always be evil people, con-artists, and thieves. Deal with it.

Your world seems simple. We were four equal partners. 1 and 2 were the original founders. 3 stepped in because we needed a 3rd person to set up the equivalent of an incorporated. I demanded the fourth one, because he had a lot of business sense.

Nr. 3 was all for the bank's investment. The two founding partners were slightly negative. Nr. 4 was all for it. So that was a bit of a problem. Took a while. Nr. 3 worked on my friend, nr. 2 'till he succumbed. So there we were, with half a million we had no immediate plans for.

Shortly after the investment, the bank told my partners they wanted to get rid of me. I warned my friend he would be next. He told me he was sure they couldn't run the company without the two of us. I was paranoid. Of course, he was next.

Nr.3 felt like the emperor of China. Finally!

Didn't last long. The entire staff talked to the bank. Nr. 3 out, or they would all leave the company. It wasn't hard at all to convince the bank. So he went.

Doesn't sound all that abnormal to me. Startups transitioning to stable businesses or being acquired usually results in turmoil. The people who are good at starting new businesses are often not that good at running the next phase(s). There are exceptions (Jobs, Musk, Gates, Ford, etc.).

I heard, years later, that he hanged himself.

Business can be very stressful. Sorry about your friend.

The company still exists and is doing well. The bank just kept one activity: online sales of cartoon drawings. And that still gets me my dividend.

So "the bank ate" your business, but you're still making money. Doesn't sound like a bad outcome to me.

My friend moved to Norway.



Of course. There's very little difference between red and blue.

I disagree.

WTF are "ant-liberty activists" and "dangerous subversive activists" ? You mean unions?

Those former Twitter employees involved in censorship and collaborating with government to control free speech and the normal flow of information. Maybe in your Utopian vision this is ok. In my view it is evil.

Of course, as a weathered right-wing person, unions are bad.

I've voted for more D than R in my life. Current incarnations of unions have more negatives than positives, IMO. They are mostly corrupt and bully their members for dues and to participate in actions that aren't really in their best interests.

And, before you start throwing simple example from the era of Al Capone to my head, I'll admit that maffia infested unions are bad. You see were being a rabid anti-communist gets you?

What? Communism is bad. So is organized crime.

Remember what happened to Musks plans in Germany? He figured that, since he was the richest man on the planet, he could easily bypass laws. I mean, he was so great that Germany should be glad to let him underpay his workers, pollute the area and avoid unions. A good thing the Germans never fell for his fairytale.

Links?

The Chinese will eat Tesla for breakfast. He knows that. I expect him to sell his shares soon. O, wait, he already sold a big bundle.

If EVs do pan out I expect some traditional auto manufacturers will continue to compete well in the space. Musk sold Tesla stock to fund his Twitter adventure. He made his choices.

Still, I have some sympathy for Elon. He's got balls and he's good at telling stories and selling stuff to people. I'd hire him for a sales job if he was broke.

Whatever. Sour grapes again.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Looking through a political lens he was a democrat but got converted by the experience of running a business.

Nah… He’s just being a political-chameleon; being whatever he thinks he needs to be at any given time.

 

[cyrano]

Maybe Elon wants out of Tesla? He can see the storm coming...

More than a dozen EV manufacturers from China have intentions to sell their cars in the west. The first one on the market here, is branded MG. The next one might be a SAAB. Another Chinese company (I don't remember the name) is already on our market with rentals and lease EVs. And they include exchanging the battery for a very modest sum if you want to keep the car after the lease expires. Obviously, exchange is free if the battery fails before the lease ends.

Tesla has been forced to lower their prices twice in the last months. It seems they have a Merc problem too.

Don't tell me Elon overlooked all of that.

 

[Recording Engineer]

If that's your take (which I find laughably biased, political, and inaccurate), how did you feel when he was popular because of all the EV, solar, and battery stuff he has helped develop? Was he not a hero of the "green" left prior to his buying Twitter?

How I felt about him at any time, was nothing. Rich, successful guy. Great for him and hopefully us (you know that whole trickled-down thing, but I’m just a step-above the very-bottom). It wasn’t until he started spouting BS politics, extremely-loud, everywhere, every day, did I notice. Apparently that’s what plenty of people like nowadays, he knows it, so that’s exactly what he’s doing. I don’t care for it! Everyone is talking about him every single day and that’s all that matters, most importantly, today anyway.

 

[AnalogPackrat]

How I felt about him at any time, was nothing. Rich, successful guy. Great for him and hopefully us (you know that whole trickled-down thing, but I’m just a step-above the very-bottom).

Ok.

It wasn’t until he started spouting BS politics, extremely-loud, everywhere, every day, did I notice.

Your opinion of his statements are noted. He clearly became aware of some of the bad thinking (and doing), disagreed with it, and started acting to counter it. A lot of us have gone through similar realizations that changed our views and understanding. The fact that some of his new realizations align against your beliefs is your problem.

Apparently that’s what plenty of people like nowadays, he knows it, so that’s exactly what he’s doing.

I don't think that's why he's doing anything. He's not Dylan Mulvaney or Ye or a Kardashian.

I don’t care for it! Everyone is talking about him every single day and that’s all that matters, most importantly, today anyway.

It's terrible that people are talking about someone you don't like and whose views you despise. Deal with it.

 

[Recording Engineer]

I don't think that's why he's doing anything. He's not Dylan Mulvaney or Ye or a Kardashian.

Don’t underestimate Musk’s vanity needs. I think that’s why he’s doing it, as much as anyone else; on your list or otherwise.

 

[JohnRoberts]

we all need to inspect our personal filters (biased world view) that we use to interpret the world events around us.

Perhaps we could do a little less mind reading.

Experiencing business failures is (or should be) a robust business education. One thing that I have learned (from Henry Ford biography and life) is to never own less than 51% of a business. Business partners can be a real drag....(been there done that).

JR

 

[sahib]

The difference is he had money to start with. If you can fall back on several hundred millions in your pocket, not a big problem.

And that's why the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor..

We have to go beyond this notion. I would not like to give my personal life story, but throughout my primary school education my family could only afford injection moulded plastic shoes for me. Try that in half a meter high snow in the winter. My wife's dad was a lorry driver and mother was a waiter. We are not rich but have a reasonably comfortable life. Yet some would consider us rich.

There are gazillions of examples of people starting out from rags and making their fortune. There are also the ones who start with money but lose it all. It all takes one simple mistake. There used to be a Jewellery chain here called Ratner's. Started out as a family business. Gerald Ratner took over the company and had made a massive success of it. He was giving a speech at a function but he made a gaff by saying that Marks and Spencer's sandwiches lasted longer than their jewellery. Within months the company went bankrupt, all his hard work went down the drain. I am not suggesting that Elon Musk would end up in welfare if he made a similar mistake, but it takes hard work to create a wealth and often harder to maintain it. It would be wonderful if I had that sort of money. I would sit on the bench and throw money at people. But you and I know very well that that is not a solution.

Anyhow, back to the main topic of AI. I could not care less about AI. Does not excite me. May be because now at 62 I have become a grumpy old man, but for me the technology did not take us to that promised land. The service has got worse, the customer care has disappeared and the human race is getting dumber by the day. We now have urban dumbs running around with phones in hand with AI. Big deal. My response is, learn some f***** manners first.

 

[cyrano]

Well, it's not as black and white as I put it. We both know that, I think

I had an uncle who started life on a small farm, with poor and harsh parents. Had to leave school at 14. Studied as a car mechanic cause he liked cars. Went to work in a lorry repair shop. The owner was old, but certainly not senile. My uncle first took over the workshop and a few years later the company, when the owner died.

He changed the company by adding a new product: restored agri machines. Made a decent amount of money. Later on, he went into real estate. I had just turned 18 and as a student job, I drove around the customers, either in his jag, or his Volvo 264. I saw him buy a house for a million (BEF, way back then) and sell it for 2 million the same day. I also noticed he was literally sick when the sale of a castle he bought took over six months. He passed away as a millionaire.

He was a money man. No other interests but money. No politics, no sports, no hobbies. Never went to the pub, even. Profit made him happy. He was tough. When someone rendered him a service, he'd always ask what he'd have to pay. Some people said 'Oh, it's free', hoping to get something. He didn't give them anything. He was widely hated for his succes and his lack of manners. I think I was the only one in the family who took him for what he was: the money.

But those are the exceptions. Let's say you live in Haiti. You have no money and no way to start a legitimate business. Even from that background, a few will elevate themselves and the vast majority will not. That's not their fault.

Anyhow, back to AI.

 

[john12ax7]

The world is not a fantasy utopia. I'm sorry you can't handle the reality that humanity is not and never will be "perfect." There will always be evil people, con-artists, and thieves. Deal with it.

So when others see wrong they should just let it go and accept it. "Deal with it"

Those former Twitter employees involved in censorship and collaborating with government to control free speech and the normal flow of information. Maybe in your Utopian vision this is ok. In my view it is evil.

But when you see wrong it needs to be addressed?

Your double standard political bias is just comical at this point.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Your double standard political bias is just comical at this point.

Indeed it is. Normally, face-to-face, I’d expect a confirmation (a verbal “Yep and I don’t give a f!”), a hearty chuckle together, and some beer. However, here in cyber land…

 

[AnalogPackrat]

So when others see wrong they should just let it go and accept it. "Deal with it"

Did I say that? No, I did not. I said expecting everyone to behave the way you want or believe they should is a fool's errand. You simply must accept that some bad actors exist and be prepared to deal with such problems. That does not mean that illegality is ok. Similarly building a society on a utopian vision that fails to account for human fallibility is doomed to fail. For example, communism or anarchism.

But when you see wrong it needs to be addressed?

Do you think censorship is good? An awful lot of Americans agree that it is bad. Do you think the massive security apparatus of government collaborating with big tech to control information and manipulate the populace is good? Again, an awful lot of Americans agree that this is bad and likely unconstitutional. We used to have a meaningful term for close cooperation between industry and state, but lately that's been "repurposed" as a generic ad hominem against anyone right of Marx. It isn't just me who sees the problem.

Your double standard political bias is just comical at this point.

Your inability to understand what I wrote is not my problem.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Your inability to understand what I wrote is not my problem.

… Says the guy consistently saying he can’t follow communication-style. That’s certainly never been my response!

 

[AnalogPackrat]

… Says the guy consistently saying he can’t follow communication-style. That’s certainly never been my response!

I'm not the only person having trouble understanding your vague and ambiguous posts.

 

[Recording Engineer]

Didn’t say otherwise. That wasn’t the point.

 

[sahib]

.......You simply must accept that some bad actors exist and be prepared to deal with such problems. That does not mean that illegality is ok. Similarly building a society on a utopian vision that fails to account for human fallibility is doomed to fail. For example, communism or anarchism.

I have been saying this for a long time but that's a discussion for another time.

 

[noizetoys]

So, about this whole AI thing.

I like to think of it this way... what you have is a Large Language Model which is essentially taking a whole bunch of text and "training" the AI (the model) to make connections between all sorts of text; dictionaries, encyclopedias, source code, news stories, etc. When posed with a query "What's the best way to X" the algorithm will analyze the query for keywords. Those keywords are then used to search the model for relevant matches. Those matches are 'ranked', if you will, by the probability of relevance to the question. The algorithm/model then begins to produce an output based on those probabilities. Or put another way: it uses probability to determine which word should follow the preceding word in its output. Yes, it is considerably more complicated than that, but you don't need the be a computer scientist to understand the basics, like you don't need to be a mechanic to drive a car.

Right now we are dealing with Maximum Hype with regards to AI. The general public doesn't understand how any of this works (nor do they really need to) so it's easy to create grand predictions and claims. That's just how it works. Think of the initial hype about computers, the public internet, VR (back in the day), crypto, electric vehicles (now, not then), or (fill in the blank) technology. Weren't we supposed to have flying cars by now? A virtual world where we spend most/all of our time that was as real as the 'real' world? Wasn't all banking supposed to be block-chain backed by now? Wasn't renewable energy supposed to have replaced fossil fuel? The list goes on and on and on and.... you get the idea.

When you say "AI" a lot of people think of The Terminator and Skynet. Yeah, those aren't a 'thing'. The possibility of a computer becoming 'self aware' is about as likely as me winning the lottery be NOT buying a ticket (or if you understand statistics, about as likely if I DO buy a ticket). Am I saying this is impossible, no. Am I saying it's something we should be worried about? No for the foreseeable future.

Training an AI model to respond to text is a far cry from an AI randomly generating an idea based on experience rather than data. You can feed a model all sorts of data and it's just that, data. Without context it remains data, not information. Information has context and is actionable, data is just a bunch of books no one's read. I can train a model to 'understand' everything we currently know about space travel. The model will create connections and produce output that is 'steered' closer to relevance (trained) thus improving the connections and output. When 'asked', the model might provide improvements to a design, a calculation, show connections it created that might have previously been missed, that sort of thing. It's not going to want to sit back and stare up at the starts and wonder what it would be like to walk on a distant planet. It might be able to provide quotes or citations related to that idea, but it's not 'wondering' about that, no more than the dust bunnies under your couch 'wonder' what carrots taste like.

The data provided is also very limited in scope. A LLM might contain data on an overwhelming variety of topics but the resultant 'AI' is not going to feel the urge to express sadness over the loss of a beloved pet. Not unless you ask it do produce output related to that topic. And then it will only produce output based on its input. Feed it info about space travel and I doubt you'll get much of anything that's useful or relevant.

Simply put, it's a Speak-n-Spell with a REALLY large vocabulary. Pull the batteries and it turns off. Erase the model and it's about as useful as a broken toaster.


Sorry to not chime in on the whole Elon Musk thing. His billions don't affect my hundreds so I just don't care. YMMV.


Now, get off my lawn!

 

[crazydoc]

AI=GIGO