DAW Machine

[analag]

So I built my last DAW 3yrs ago and now it's growing a lil long in the tooth (still strong but  ya know), I decided to build again. Only to find that the tech has evolved to the point where I need to relearn a lot of stuff.  But it's exciting...no more spinners, 1TB NMVE for OS,  1TB NMVE studio drive 2TB Sata SSD for files/ samples etc, minimum 64GB Ram. Ryzen of course, I stopped building Intel powered machines in the early 90s. Went with Asrock since they offer thunderbolt on the AMD platform and since DIY is in my blood a custom water cool loop is the way I see it. I'm eyeballing the Quantum 4848, I just don't like the wall wart PS
https://www.sknoteaudio.com/wp/index.php/2019/11/13/anytesla-audio-transformers-to-every-mixer-channel/

 

[boji]

Is thunderbolt the new I/O standard?  I'm still running  AES.

 

[pucho812]

Is thunderbolt the new I/O standard?  I'm still running  AES.

depends.  connections have evolved faster then the computers they go in  and computers are evolving slower then the OS and software.  At current Mac is pushing thunderbolt 3,usbc and usb 3.1 for everything depending on the computer model.  while the extra throughput is great many are still USB 2 mice and such

 

[iomegaman]

So I built my last DAW 3yrs ago and now it's growing a lil long in the tooth (still strong but  ya know), I decided to build again. Only to find that the tech has evolved to the point where I need to relearn a lot of stuff.  But it's exciting...no more spinners, 1TB NMVE for OS,  1TB NMVE studio drive 2TB Sata SSD for files/ samples etc, minimum 64GB Ram. Ryzen of course, I stopped building Intel powered machines in the early 90s. Went with Asrock since they offer thunderbolt on the AMD platform and since DIY is in my blood a custom water cool loop is the way I see it. I'm eyeballing the Quantum 4848, I just don't like the wall wart PS
https://www.sknoteaudio.com/wp/index.php/2019/11/13/anytesla-audio-transformers-to-every-mixer-channel/

Ok not sure why the sknote link but thanks for that was completely unaware and man they are impressive...

As far as DAW builds I'm actually going backwards in time mainly because I shifted to Apogee/Apple/ProTools these last few years...built a cheese grater running Mojave/PT12/16-channels of Apogee via ADAT/FW...yeah friggin firewire...

I used to build my own PC's and price point it was waaaay cheaper to get top performance from AMD and building it yourself than anything else...still have a rock solid 64bit Win7 machine...but pretty much like the stability that the Mac/Apogee route has given me as well as the software end...Logic is really solid (but gravitating to ProFools has not been hard)...also using Harrison Mix 32C which is pretty cool and has a definite sound of its own as a DAW...because I am using hybrid (the Biamp Console is incredibly versatile, quiet as a mouse and as good as any discrete pre's I've built) I picked up a Behringer ADA8200 for $100 on reverb to add 8 more ADAT channels so I can go 20 -in/16 buses out if I want...I'm not gonna change anytime soon, but man DAW envy is hard on a DIYer...

What are you linking the sknote for? The software stuff seems incredible...the hardware stuff is outta my budget...

(My Cheese grater uses NVMe as primary OS drive...it wasn't hard but I spent a couple a weeks teaching myself how to build it on Mac Rumors)

PS this cheese grater Mac Pro 2012 with 8 cores and 32 gigs of ram only cost me about $400 to build but more than that in learning curve, I am a cheap MF'er...

 

[Mbira]

There are some DAW machine builders that strongly feel that the  M.2 drives have overheating issues and so end up with slower throughput than standard SSDs. Something to keep in mind.

 

[Tubetec]

Interesting post ,
Just the terminology alone needed several google searches to grasp hold of ,
The more I think about it  the bigger the sense of dread comes to mind if I try and entertain the idea of pressing 'record' via windows , obviously it is possible , but Ive never found the secret sauce to make it work satisfactorily .

I got my first computer in 1984 , had to share the cost 50/50 with my parents ,
I guess I was too outgoing to make a proper computer nerd in the end , that and having come through sound in a day where it was one control per function ,

Anyhow ,onwards and upwards downwards or sideways depending on the road your on 

 

[analag]

Hmmm, I have been recording in Windows when Adat(1990s) was king? Samplitude synced up to Cubase when it was sequencer only. I remember being on a waiting list for a whole year for Echo Layla the first multi I/O rack mount audio interface  solution for Windows based DAWs.  I still have the thing thrown in with my pile of outdated crapola.
M.2 over heating is not a problem in a properly built machine.  The platform of my choice is no longer underdog (Windows/ AMD).  And its only getting better.
Oh and and I linked the Sknote plugin because that guy makes some pretty good stuff.

 

[iomegaman]

Hmmm, I have been recording in Windows when Adat(1990s) was king? Samplitude synced up to Cubase when it was sequencer only. I remember being on a waiting list for a whole year for Echo Layla the first multi I/O rack mount audio interface  solution for Windows based DAWs.  I still have the thing thrown in with my pile of outdated crapola.
M.2 over heating is not a problem in a properly built machine.  The platform of my choice is no longer underdog (Windows/ AMD).  And its only getting better.
Oh and and I linked the Sknote plugin because that guy makes some pretty good stuff.

I went backwards from an Echo Layla to a Delta 1010...later moved to Lynx and it was like taking a wet blanket off the DAC...still use the Lynx...great company...I use the Windows machine (Lynx) for my Kontakt Samples/Superior drummer...in Kontakt I go straight across digitally via Spdif into the Apogee...drum samples I drop through the Behringer Adat because I can send out 8 channels into the ADAT>>>Apogee...so I can keep the CPU load on my main DAW focused on primarily being a tape machine.

I think I've kinda outgrown needing a new rig every 3-4 years...used to upgrade as soon as I could....but I've gotten tired of trying to get drivers/daw/asio/OS/vst's/etc to all work together and have decided to just build a solid DAW for Protools and lock it in for a while...Apple's new pricing in the cheese graters if friggin ridiculous...prtools and everyone else wants you on a subscription....I spent nearly $2k on Sonar only to have Cakewalk screw the pooch...lifetime updates are worthless when you shut down the servers 'cause you took the money and ran. Fuck 'em.

 

[alexc]

I use an AMD FX 8-core Windows box with fast 3.5" SSDs for my DAW  ...  it's quite good even at 3yrs+  or so old ... Motu 2408Mk3.

Over the last 6mths or so, I've been running  the AMD DAW box with several different Windows OS versions ..

Win7_64 as the default on one SSD    and  both    Win10_64  and WinServer_16  on another SSD.

My experience is that Win7_64 is streets ahead in performance and stability over Win10_64

Win10_64  works OK at first, but is quite unstable with all the updating and that 'turned on' - especially in areas of  networked file system performance, multi threaded type operations and of course,  overall stability. 

Apart from that, its 'ok'.

And happily, those lobotomised pre-school apps they ship with - still work fine 

...

I've just stopped using it altogether now  because  the Nov 2019 updates to Win10_64 have blown up the file system pretty severely - it just hangs File Explorer with a rude restart required. Just dreadful when it happens  .. like stepping back to 1994 or something.

...

WinServer_2016  is quite good - I think much, much, MUCH  better than Win10_64  and no problem at all so far, but I have updates frozen on that one a couple of months back.

Anyway - just some more data points.

I'm going to spend more time building up the audio apps on the WinServer_2016 install that  I have been evaluating,  *before*  'piling in' with the bulk of the DAW functionality  [much hours++]

I usually do that gradually, with testing and system 'imaging'  using Acronis  ...  which works really well still and hasn't let me down yet.

So far WinServer_2016 is the better ' step up from Win7_64'  to my way of thinking - across the board, but particularly in audio apps.

Next,  is update to some current Ryzen action to really put some  rocket in the docket!

 

[iomegaman]

Interesting Alex, I have kinda stopped working with Windows because I hate Win10, my Lynx system is Win7/64 and I hate the idea that it is now goin away because it was the most robust Win system I ever had since Win2kServer...

I might look into another Win system because those Ryzens seem like amazing chipsets...holy smokes, and I like the idea of a Win Server system stability...

When Win10 and Cakewalk and Sonar all crashed my party (after spending tons of money on them all) I abandoned ship for Apple obsolete products...

If you're going to go down with the ship it might as well be a shiny one.

 

[analag]

My Win10 64bit  machine is fx8350, 32G ram, SSD OS drive, 2 Terabyte spinner for samples etc. I also keep a bunch of backup SSDs. I run Cubase, Reaper and Samplitude. About a million (closer to 500+) plugins and zero issues except I want more and more in terms of speed and multitasking. Multi display with the mixer permanently on one monitor. I sum in the box or through my analog mixer when I want to employ the good ol tube compressors or hardware thingy for what they bring to the mix.

 

[john12ax7]

Thanks alexc for all the info.  I too am a Win7 holdout,  it does what I need it to do.  Have Win 10 on a newer laptop and all the auto updates are unbearable.  The last update messed up the boot manager,  took some digging to get Linux back,  which I use 90% of the time on the laptop.

 

[alexc]

That too, me too.

Is why I use seperate SSD drives for  'Win7_64'  and another for new OS s, fully disconnecting the 'old' while I mess with the 'new'.   
At least while the [lengthy] 'upgrade evaluation/stabilisation' process in on-going.

 

[alexc]

For my new interface, I'll be looking at the Motu 828-ES    ...  only if the vendor lets me 'trial' a demo unit  'at home'  first!

I like the 'ESI Sabre'  feature and I'm OK with the USB 2.0  [usb 3.0 'downwards compatible'] as I only really do about 6chns of I-O simultaneously these days in my 'studio'    [lounge and dining rooms  ]  and generally only at fs 48Khz

For PC, I like the USB3.0 functionality, but I'm not aware of any usb 3.0 audio interfaces that actually demonstrate any advantage over USB 2.0, in terms of throughput and stability of use.

USB3.0 is stonkingly fast, responsive and stable with my 'data drives'  ...  I use an external 4x sata3 HDD enclosure with USB3.0 as 'backup'  off my 'WinServer_2009 storage system server'  and it absolutely 'kicks a**' in use.

Not bad for a circa 2007 box [was my DAW for many years!] with a usb3.0  pcie add-in card [$20]. The file server [quad Pentium!]  also has 6x internal  sata2 HDD for  'front line' storage which is amazingly fast across my own home network, for a number of years now.

I use 'Goodsync  file system synchronisation'    app    ..  super, super awesome for version/control archiving etc  on huge network archives.

...

At present, I remain an old [undoubtedly]  fire-wire and/or Motu pci-e  user; of course both are quite old hat but still work on my systems, particularly when doing high channel counts ....  the Motu 2408Mk3  has no issues at all with all 24 I-O simultanous at 48KHz  ...  even in Win10 

....

Lol, Win10 just now 'flipped me the bird'  with the  .. 'blue screen'    ..  of    'unrequisitioned restart permissioning'  [bsod]  feature  ...  sigh ....  better wind up ..

 

[alexc]

If you're going to go down with the ship it might as well be a shiny one.

Like it   [edits finished.]

 

[iomegaman]

For my new interface, I'll be looking at the Motu 828-ES    ...  only if the vendor lets me 'trial' a demo unit  'at home'  first!

I like the 'ESI Sabre'  feature and I'm OK with the USB 2.0  [usb 3.0 'downwards compatible'] as I only really do about 6chns of I-O simultaneously these days in my 'studio'    [lounge and dining rooms  ]  and generally only at fs 48Khz

For PC, I like the USB3.0 functionality, but I'm not aware of any usb 3.0 audio interfaces that actually demonstrate any advantage over USB 2.0, in terms of throughput and stability of use.

USB3.0 is stonkingly fast, responsive and stable with my 'data drives'  ...  I use an external 4x sata3 HDD enclosure with USB3.0 as 'backup'  off my 'WinServer_2009 storage system server'  and it absolutely 'kicks a**' in use.

Not bad for a circa 2007 box [was my DAW for many years!] with a usb3.0  pcie add-in card [$20]. The file server [quad Pentium!]  also has 6x internal  sata2 HDD for  'front line' storage which is amazingly fast across my own home network, for a number of years now.

I use 'Goodsync  file system synchronisation'    app    ..  super, super awesome for version/control archiving etc  on huge network archives.

...

Thunderbolt and the more modern stable of Mac interfaces  are great on paper, [from my PC perspective] but not well supported in the PC world, as far as I know.

[could easily be a case of me being out-of-date!]

For serious multi-channel throughput at higher sample rates, usb2.0 is suspect in my book - but I could be convinced with a solid piece of kit. 

At present, I remain a fire-wire and/or Motu pci-e  user; of course both are quite old hat but still work on my systems, particularly when doing high channel counts ....  the Motu 2408Mk3  has no issues at all with all 24 I-O simultanous at 48KHz  ...  even in Win10 

Lol, Win10 just now 'flipped me the bird'  with the  .. 'blue screen'    ..  of    'unrequisitioned restart permissioning'  [bsod]  feature  ...  sigh ....

Yeah I'm all fire wire here...I've seen a few videos of Mac Cheese Grater guys running th enew Thunderbolt Apogee/UAD devices on these older Mac Towers but you have to trick the OS...they run Bootcamp, boot into Windows then soft boot back into Mojave/Mac OS...at that point the thunderbolt pci-e cards are driver loaded because of Windows and somehow the Mac OS doesn't know and allows it...from what I understand the way Apple codes their machines you cannot load drivers in the OS that there is no hardware for, so the BIOS cannot be tweaked you have to run an end-around...but guys are getting these devices to load in Logic and Reaper in Mojave in spite of Mojave NOT supporting these cheese graters (My own primary mac daw is NOT supported in Mojave I am running a tweaked out beta copy via some handshake script the guys on Mac Rumors came up with.

Its kinda dumb but the newer Apogee stuff is all thunderbolt and actually cheaper than the FW Ensemble I am using...but the newer stuff is limited I/O and then pushes ADAT for the rest of it...I like actual hardware I/O WITh ADAT...plug it into the console and be done.

Windows and Apple sure have different approaches to how they update software, and unfortunately software vendors on Mac are usually quite a bit behind the curve compared to the Microsoft stuff, which I always found odd since a PC can be an almost infinite number of different vendor parts all sewn together by WDM...Mac there's only a handful of parts available and no one seems to keep up with Apples release dates...

I get why people stay away from Mac stuff when they do...a simple USB 3/C card or thunderbolt card is gonna be AT LEAST $100+...same card functionality in a PC easily half that much.

I've tried to stay fluent in both Microsoft and Mac but when they moved away from Win7 to Win10's crappy toy "tile" design they lost me...they went after the hipsters and screwed the power users...I used to love MSCONFIG...or the fact that you could set up separate user accounts to limit what ran on the machine...no one is running Windows on a damn phone, someone listened to the wrong prognosticator.

 

[alexc]

(w) right on!

 

[alexc]

My most used DAW machine ( deus e machina) is the Tascam DR-40  recorder with usb2 interface. 

Incredible performance for the price.    Great 'right here, right now'    capabilities for few dienro.

< presented without edits>

.. edited today!

 

[Tubetec]

As Ive mentioned I have not used a daw for any mission critical recording/tracking work ever .
I do keep one handy though , mainly as a master recorder and for some editing tasks or plugins etc .
When I saw you guys relate your experience of Win 10 Im just so glad I smelt a rat and didnt even entertain the idea of using that bucket of bolts ( the politest terminology in my vocabulary for it)

'Core drilling' XP/7 has always been one of my favourite hobbies , by that I mean stripping out old ,unused or non essential services and even de- chipping mobo's or pulling wifi or other modules as well as third party software nips and tucs.  For me when windows starts to show instabillity a 'clean slate' restart is first not last option .  I wouldnt consider myself a power user so never spent massive money on hardware, but the technique of reducing the HD actvity led  to almost invisible on housekeeping tasks I guess is same either way  , keep up the good work gentlemen 

 

[Scodiddly]

Surprised nobody has mentioned Dante for getting to and from I/O box(es).  In the live world we're running from stage to consoles and back with Dante, and a license for a computer is $30 for all the channels your Ethernet port can handle.