Embarassing P/S question....

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Swedish Chef

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
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351
Location
London
Right I'm building a 6.3V heater supply with a tx rated at 30VA with 2 x 6V secondaries. I have paralleled these and then they go into a bridge rec rated much higher than I need. Out the other end I get 8.4V unloaded.
Now comes the problem as soon as I connect the LM350 the voltage out of the bridge rec drops to about 6.7V and the max I can get out of the reg is 4.5V with every combination of R1 and R2 values :?
what am I doing which is so stupid?
for ref http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM150.pdf

Oh and the max current draw is something like 2.6A on start up settling down to 1.6A in normal operation....

chef :mad:
 
seems like the LM350 draws quite some current then?

For 6.3V stabilized voltage, you should use at least a 9V transformer to allow for stabilizer and diode drops.

Or 12V - your two secondaries in series. At 30VA, you should still be able to draw 2.5A - isn't this enough for your purpose? Allow for some 10-15W power dissipation on your regulator heatsink..

Jakob E.
 
How big is the smoothing cap from bridge rec + to ground, you need at least 4,700mfd.
Also the regulator needs a minimum voltage difference from input to output to make it work, 8.4v in is probably not enough.
steve
 
[quote author="gyraf"]seems like the LM350 draws quite some current then?

For 6.3V stabilized voltage, you should use at least a 9V transformer to allow for stabilizer and diode drops.

Or 12V - your two secondaries in series. At 30VA, you should still be able to draw 2.5A - isn't this enough for your purpose? Allow for some 10-15W power dissipation on your regulator heatsink..

Jakob E.[/quote]

Yeah I forgot to say it worked fine sticking the 2 secondaries in series, but i was trying to avoid dumping 12W of power in the heatsink... :?
Oh well. what's a big dump between friends... :shock:
Not very pleasant...but neither was the crash I had in my car yesterday :cry:
I'm fine but my brother-in-law's car isn't...

Steve: yeah I have a 6800uF in there..I fear it is indeed a headroom issue... :sad:

chef :green:
 
> what am I doing which is so stupid?

Nobody else here seems to think so, but I think the AC voltage for feeding regulators should be the DC voltage plus 3V. So you want 9.3V windings.

> 30VA with 2 x 6V secondaries. ...a bridge rec ...I get 8.4V unloaded. {loaded} bridge rec drops to about 6.7V and the max I can get out of the reg is 4.5V.... max current draw is something like 2.6A on start up settling down to 1.6A in normal operation.... for ref http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM150.pdf

The 8.4V is "perfect" (6V*1.414), meaning it can't be that high with any useful load. I would expect no more than 7.2V (8.4V-1.2V) with any significant load. And you are already in trouble, because the in/out drop of a 350 at a couple amps is a couple of volts. Add in some ripple, you are down to like 7.2V-2V-0.2V= 5 volts maximum clean output. Less on bad days (when utility power lines sag).

Why do you need regulated? If you actually need 6.300V, you better have a LOT more headroom on that regulator; their regulation sucks when you push the in/out difference too small. You would not starve your audio amps and pretend that 0.1dB headroom is enough, why do that to your regulators? Stick about 10VDC on the top of the 350 and damm the heat.

Or... since you have the 6V windings already, and tube heaters do NOT need regulation on any semi-civilized utility power, just get passive. And since you have 2x6V, don't use that silly bridge and its double-diode losses. Wire the windings in series, ground the center-tap, run one diode from each hot end to the filter cap. (You can use the bridge-rec you have, just use 2 of the 4 diodes, the two that go to the "+" pin.)

You should get 7.8VDC at light load. You need to have enough first capacitor, and at these low voltages you want MUCH more than 1,000uFd per Amp, or much more than 2,000uFd, possibly more like 20,000uFd for minimum ripple and maximum average DC. (But 6,800uFd isn't bad.) The 7.8VDC is about 1.5V more than you need, and load is about 1.5A, so stick in a 1Ω resistor and a second big cap, 6,000-20,000uFd. Ripple winds up around 0.1V to 0.01V depending how big the caps are.

And this is true no matter how the wall-power varies, whereas a starved regulator may be dead-clean on high-line days and total ripple-crap on low-line days. Heat in the resistor is obviously the same as heat in the regulator (if the reg could work at such low voltage, which it won't), and a 5W resistor can run hotter and be smaller than a sillycon chip and fins. You won't get 6.300V exactly, but (assuming no mis-wire) it will be close enough to make the tube happy. Let it cook with a voltmeter on it and see if it tends to be high or low when fully warm. Use 10Ω parallel or 0.1Ω series resistors on the 1Ω resistor to fudge the heaters into the 6.1V-6.3V range.
 
[quote author="PRR"]> what am I doing which is so stupid?

Nobody else here seems to think so,[/quote]

you could have left it there :green:
seriously though that was an amazing answer, thanks so much! It's like having tailor-made textbooks when you ask a tech question around here! :shock:
fantastic!
I'll try the 12V in as is but will also try the unreg'd later when noone is evaluating it...

:sam: :guinness:
I owe you a couple :wink:

chef

p.s. if you bite on my other I fear I may owe you a crate... :grin:
 
PRR: how critical is regulation on audio op-amp stages? I've got a relatively low-ripple passive PSU I built with some fairly big caps...
 
> how critical is regulation on audio op-amp stages?

I think it is unimportant. I only regulate when I need to run above +/-15V rails and don't want to risk a high-line day blowing +/-18V rated parts. (But I also have standard chips fed +/-17V nominal, and they must have seen 19 or 20 volts a few times, and run that way for many years.)

OTOH, folks I respect like Walt Jung say it makes a difference. A really good regulator has a lower rail impedance than any cap. And remember that the power pins ARE inputs, just not very good. I think if rail-crap makes a real difference, the op-amp designer maybe could have built-in more rail rejection, but that may be hard and we have to use what we can get.
 

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