fbi handwritten notes - Michael Flynn

[hodad]

I will not reply in kind toward you personally, but please lighten up. You seem angry, or do you always talk like that?

JR

First off, interesting that you happily support Trump (who constantly says vile, angry things) and get worked up about how I talk. 

2nd, I have a feeling this judge has a much fuller picture of the case than you do, with your portrait of the Martyr Flynn, the man who was conspiring to kidnap a Turkish cleric from US soil, has some of the best lawyers money can buy, and yet the mean feds have crushed this wonderful, helpless man.    I suspect Sullivan has a better picture than I do as well, and a broader knowledge of the law. 

He's been put in a difficult situation by Barr and Trump.  He is asked to do something that, as Matador pointed out, is unprecedented iun American judicial history.  He is being asked to be complicit in what, on the surface, appears to be cronyism and abuse of power by the AG and the president.  I think he's making a good call to move slowly and with great deliberation. 

Unfortunately, there are signs that you tend buy into the notion that Trump is some sort of saint that all these evil, by-the-book Feds are out to get.  Some vast conspiracy of bureaucrats who don't like Trump because--well, why exactly?  Because of his open admissions of sexual assault?  His flouting of every norm that has kept this country's govt.  running for 200 years?  His extreme efforts to dodge the "advise & consent" role of Congress?  His drive to fill his cabinet with people who are marginally competent?  His lack of interest in having an effective federal govt.?  His continued touting of a COVID drug that has been shown (in a new study of 96000 patients around the world) to kill more people than it might possibly help?  Is it the abuse of taxpayer dollars to fund his own business interests?  His unwillingness to make even a pretense of paying the least bit of attention to the emoluments clause of the Constitution?  Is it the no-bid contracts to companies that overcharge and underdeliver, but just happen to be politically well-connected?  Is it the name-calling, the race-baiting, the mumbling incoherence? 

I don't know.  Maybe the problem here isn't the Feds.  Maybe, just maybe, it's Trump.  Maybe he really is as bad a president, and as bad a human, as all the evidence would seem to indicate. 

 

[Gold]

He lied by saying he was guilty to get the government boot off his neck. They already broke him, and were threatening his family.

By “threatening his family”  I assume you mean  his son who was part of the consulting firm and intimately involved in his misdeeds. Not his wife or some random second cousins.

 

[JohnRoberts]

By “threatening his family”  I assume you mean  his son who was part of the consulting firm and intimately involved in his misdeeds. Not his wife or some random second cousins.

Son is family, just like Joe is defensive about Hunter.

JR

PS: I saw Joe on a mostly softball TV interview this morning (CNBC) and he sounded almost lucid... He mostly stuck to his latest policy talking points that are more moderate than Bernie's but is slowly being pulled leftward. The oddest thing he said was wanting "a system that could transmit coal and wind across the country"... I suspect he was talking about distributing electricity. I almost feel guilty calling him on stuff like that, I had larger problems with his almost clearly stated policies. 

In fact I agree with him 100% that windmills don't cause cancer.... Not sure where that came from, but yeah, they don't...  : And Brazil should stop burning the rain forest... I guess with AOC as his climate change co-chair (with John Kerry)  he has that covered.

 

[Gold]

Son is family, just like Joe is defensive about Hunter.

Except there have already been two investigations into Burisma with no wrong doing found. Sleazy yes, illegal no. Joe Biden doesn't have to fall on his sword. Michael Flynn had to fall on his sword because his son was intimately involved in what he pled guilty to. A very different situation.

In fact I agree with him 100% that windmills don't cause cancer.... Not sure where that came from, but yeah, they don't...  :

President Trump is against wind power because it causes cancer. He's said so more than once. That is of course an idiotic statement but my nomination for dumbest thing the President has said is "We're the Federal Government, we are not shipping clerks". The two most basic functions of any government are defense and delivering the mail. Without either you don't have a nation.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Except there have already been two investigations into Burisma with no wrong doing found. Sleazy yes, illegal no. Joe Biden doesn't have to fall on his sword. Michael Flynn had to fall on his sword because his son was intimately involved in what he pled guilty to. A very different situation.

I do not have a sense that Hunter has been rigorously investigated yet... He was picking up some fairly big money action in both China and Ukraine, riding on his dad's coat tails (often riding in the same plane on international trips). Sadly this is business as usual in the swamp and the children of high profile administration personnel routinely do better than average (kind of like how representatives in congress become millionaires on only modest pay). 

President Trump is against wind power because it causes cancer. He's said so more than once. That is of course an idiotic statement but my nomination for dumbest thing the President has said is "We're the Federal Government, we are not shipping clerks". The two most basic functions of any government are defense and delivering the mail. Without either you don't have a nation.

I was not aware of that claim and of course wind turbines do not cause cancer... I guess it is a democratic dog whistle now...and I didn't recognize it.

He was repeating a suggestion he heard that LF noise from wind turbines causes the harm... That is more than a stretch. I do not excuse President Trump for repeating nonsense (not his first time). He is clearly incorrect repeating that turbines cause cancer (cancer sucks and is caused by other stressors).
=====
If delivering mail is one of the most basic functions of the federal government you'd expect them to do a better job.  : (My newspaper did arrive on the correct day today, it does not do that every day.)

Yes, the federal government is responsible for national defense and dealing with foreign nations. Not the long list of myriad things they have expanded to do now while looking for even more to do. Delivering physical mail is a left over anachronism from a past century...

JR

 

[Gold]

I do not have a sense that Hunter has been rigorously investigated yet... He was picking up some fairly big money action in both China and Ukraine, riding on his dad's coat tails (often riding in the same plane on international trips).

Then investigate away. It’s sleazy but not illegal.  It’s a good excuse to investigate all the super sleazy stuff Ivanka has been doing as a tit  for tat . She after all is an actual public official.

He was repeating a suggestion he heard that LF noise from wind turbines causes the harm... That is more than a stretch.

There are plenty of things to be critical about wind power. Causing cancer  isn’t one of them.

 

[JohnRoberts]

Then investigate away. It’s sleazy but not illegal.  It’s a good excuse to investigate all the super sleazy stuff Ivanka has been doing as a tit  for tat . She after all is an actual public official.

enjoy... that is the nature of swamp politics for the party out of power to investigate the other.

Using government force to interfere with elections is not even normal or acceptable from the swamp.

There are plenty of things to be critical about wind power. Causing cancer  isn’t one of them.

Agreed....  but I think I already said that.


JR

 

[hodad]

It’s a good excuse to investigate all the super sleazy stuff Ivanka has been doing as a tit  for tat .

Republicans don't care.  They do not care.  Period.  Have you seen evidence that anything will change their minds about Trump, regardless of how awful it might be?  There's always an excuse:  he's "owning the libtards," or it's his "negotiating technique," or "it doesn't matter what he says; he has people to work out the details,"  or when he says or does something outrageous & vile they simply say, "Why not do that?' 

I'm not saying this as a political tit-for-tat, or because I'm "angry."  I'm looking at the evidence all around me.  Republicans have been groomed for this, possibly the biggest con in the history of our country.  Donald Trump, for all of his weaknesses, is masterful when it comes to conning people.  He plays rubes perfectly. 

The problem is that he's not just conning some poor marks into buyin g Trump steaks or signing up for Trump University.  He's endangering the future of our entire nation, and his marks have become a tool to screw over everybody.  Trump's supporters are like footsoldiers in a pyramid scheme,  totally believing they're "in on it" when they're simply being used by the people at the top. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

Republicans don't care.  They do not care.  Period.  Have you seen evidence that anything will change their minds about Trump, regardless of how awful it might be?  There's always an excuse:  he's "owning the libtards," or it's his "negotiating technique," or "it doesn't matter what he says; he has people to work out the details,"  or when he says or does something outrageous & vile they simply say, "Why not do that?' 

I am confident that you will not change voters minds with the feckless congressional investigations lasting last few years, and pretty much coming up empty. Multiple high profile politicians contradicted their own public statements that they had "evidence" in private testimony under oath. This is actual "evidence" of their bad behavior.

I'm not saying this as a political tit-for-tat, or because I'm "angry."  I'm looking at the evidence all around me.  Republicans have been groomed for this, possibly the biggest con in the history of our country.  Donald Trump, for all of his weaknesses, is masterful when it comes to conning people.  He plays rubes perfectly. 

If it's a con its a masterful long con to grow the economy and employment.

The problem is that he's not just conning some poor marks into buyin g Trump steaks or signing up for Trump University.  He's endangering the future of our entire nation, and his marks have become a tool to screw over everybody.  Trump's supporters are like footsoldiers in a pyramid scheme,  totally believing they're "in on it" when they're simply being used by the people at the top.

I find your world view inconsistent with my experience... Does that make me a "rube"? (Rhetorical you already said that and worse.)

If you want something dangerous to think about Attorney General Barr recently noted that using criminal prosecution instead of political votes to remove unpopular elected leaders is the real danger to our republic.

You will have an opportunity soon enough to vote POTUS out of office, but I have said that before. I would say work on that instead, but sadly that is what you guys have been working on all along. Using tax payer money to cast shade on the administration.

JR

PS: VP Joe Biden can't seem to help himself. He just offended one critical voting block for his party with his "cool Joe" patter.

 

[Gold]

Republicans don't care.  They do not care.  Period

I don’t think anything will happen. Just like Trump knew nothing would happen with Hillary or Hunter Biden. It just needs to be an ongoing narrative.  The point is to abuse his favorite daughter to drive him nuts. He is very good at projecting his weaknesses.

 

[hodad]

I am confident that you will not change voters minds with the feckless congressional investigations lasting last few years, and pretty much coming up empty.

You mean Benghazi?  And Hillary's emails? 

 

[hodad]

If you want something dangerous to think about Attorney General Barr recently noted that using criminal prosecution instead of political votes to remove unpopular elected leaders is the real danger to our republic.
.

And Republicans were so concerned about Bill Clinton facing a civil lawsuit as a sitting president.  Oh, wait.. the same hypocrites defending Trump now were more than happy to go after Clinton then. 

And just to state it plainly:  according to Barr & current Republican thinking, as long as there a 34 Republican senators, Trump cannot be held liable for anything.  He cannot be investigated by Congress, cannot be subject to lawsuits or criminal prosecution.  He can pretty much do whatever he wants with impunity. 

That's not a president.  That's a dictator.  Is that really what you want in a government?  Is Trump the hill you want to destroy this country on?  Are you so invested in a narcissistic, silver-spoon con man that you'd fight to flush 200+ years of the American Experiment down the toilet?  Get a freaking mirror and look in it.  Is that really who you want to be?  Is Trump's America really the America you grew up loving and defending? 

 

[hodad]

I'm sure that last post was too "angry" or strident, but I do think we're at a crisis point in this country.  The fervor around Trump echoes collective "mind-losings" of the past--whether you're talking the Red Scare, or Mao's Cultural Revolution, or the Rwandan genocide.  Trump mania is on that spectrum, but where exactly it will fall is yet to be determined. 

I can honestly say it's not something I anticipated living through in this country, but here we are.  I probably should have seen it coming--the decades of grooming of the populace by right wing talk radio and Fox News,  the resentment among a large subset of whites as they came ever closer to being just another minority in a country that they consider "theirs."  The move by Karl Rove and others on the right away from "reality-based" politics into a world where convenient lies drive the political narrative and overwhelm any effort to determine what's actually going on. 

It all set us up for the perfect storm of Trump, where a large subset of the country's white population is ready to vent their rage at all those forces attacking them.  They need scapegoats.  Trump's good at that.  They need to feel good about themselves--they need someone who doesn't just tolerate their flaws but actually encourages them--the resentment, the jealousy and fear and hate--it's all good! 

And they need a savior--enter Trump.  He's the man who can fix everything, a man whose weakness is strength, whose ignorance is brilliance.  A man who will believe in you--so long as you believe unquestioningly in him. 

It's ugly.  It could get uglier. 

 

[JohnRoberts]

I'm sure that last post was too "angry" or strident, but I do think we're at a crisis point in this country.  The fervor around Trump echoes collective "mind-losings" of the past--whether you're talking the Red Scare, or Mao's Cultural Revolution, or the Rwandan genocide.  Trump mania is on that spectrum, but where exactly it will fall is yet to be determined. 

TDS was named two years ago.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_derangement_syndrome  I do not perceive it as getting worse, but it certainly is not getting any better.

I can honestly say it's not something I anticipated living through in this country, but here we are.  I probably should have seen it coming--the decades of grooming of the populace by right wing talk radio and Fox News,  the resentment among a large subset of whites as they came ever closer to being just another minority in a country that they consider "theirs."  The move by Karl Rove and others on the right away from "reality-based" politics into a world where convenient lies drive the political narrative and overwhelm any effort to determine what's actually going on. 

not to get all philosophical about reality but it has been studied and written about for centuries. Your personal reality is clearly different than mine. We have different life experiences and apparently different world views.

It all set us up for the perfect storm of Trump, where a large subset of the country's white population is ready to vent their rage at all those forces attacking them. 

That sounds racist?

They need scapegoats.  Trump's good at that.  They need to feel good about themselves--they need someone who doesn't just tolerate their flaws but actually encourages them--the resentment, the jealousy and fear and hate--it's all good! 

And they need a savior--enter Trump.  He's the man who can fix everything, a man whose weakness is strength, whose ignorance is brilliance.  A man who will believe in you--so long as you believe unquestioningly in him. 

It's ugly.  It could get uglier.

I truly hope it doesn't get any uglier, but that often happens in the run up to a major election, especially if one side is getting desperate. If mud slinging is normal politics, this year they will be slinging rocks.

I worry about what your team might do if you lose in Nov. I sense frustration building over the last few years of ineffective sentiment mining (the impeachment was never a real possibility so was just a forum used to discredit POTUS. )

You mean Benghazi?  And Hillary's emails? 

no

And Republicans were so concerned about Bill Clinton facing a civil lawsuit as a sitting president.  Oh, wait.. the same hypocrites defending Trump now were more than happy to go after Clinton then. 

Impeachment was a political process and Bill Clinton was not impeached (the correct outcome IMO... ) Our founders made impeachment difficult on purpose. They preferred to settle political differences with votes.  Cum stains on a blue dress is deplorable but not criminal... I would not mind a serious investigation of the Clinton Foundation which seems to have lost momentum without a Clinton in high office having valuable government influence to peddle. 

And just to state it plainly:  according to Barr & current Republican thinking, as long as there a 34 Republican senators, Trump cannot be held liable for anything.  He cannot be investigated by Congress, cannot be subject to lawsuits or criminal prosecution.  He can pretty much do whatever he wants with impunity. 

um no, but like I said impeachment is difficult for a reason...  Maybe vote him out of office in a few months.

That's not a president.  That's a dictator.  Is that really what you want in a government?  Is Trump the hill you want to destroy this country on?  Are you so invested in a narcissistic, silver-spoon con man that you'd fight to flush 200+ years of the American Experiment down the toilet?  Get a freaking mirror and look in it.  Is that really who you want to be?  Is Trump's America really the America you grew up loving and defending? 

You have a strange idea of what a dictator is.... there are unfortunately too many actual dictators still in power around the world.

President Trump has done far more right than wrong, but he is still blowhard who punches back/down when people insult him.  Media has a love/hate relationship with him because he is keeping them all in jobs.

JR

PS: I would find your comments personally insulting if I valued your opinion even a little.

 

[hodad]

You have a strange idea of what a dictator is.... there are unfortunately too many actual dictators still in power around the world.

Illiberal Democracy is a better term.  Not there yet, but it's what Trump seems to be going for.

PS: I would find your comments personally insulting if I valued your opinion even a little.

That's so sweet, John.  Thanks!

 

[hodad]

There are probably other sources for this info for those too delicate to be exposed to a liberal website, but this is  a summary with complete text of Sullivan's brief to the Appeals Court.  In case anyone actually cares to hear why he has proceeded as he has. 

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/sullivan-flynn-appeals-court-response

EDIT:  You can read the DOJ's brief as well:  https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/read-doj-says-judges-moves-in-flynn-case-violate-constitution

 

[JohnRoberts]

There are probably other sources for this info for those too delicate to be exposed to a liberal website, but this is  a summary with complete text of Sullivan's brief to the Appeals Court.  In case anyone actually cares to hear why he has proceeded as he has. 

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/sullivan-flynn-appeals-court-response

EDIT:  You can read the DOJ's brief as well:  https://talkingpointsmemo.com/muckraker/read-doj-says-judges-moves-in-flynn-case-violate-constitution

I'm shocked.. Judge Sullivan think's he is right.  :

This is still small ball, but wrong. The judiciary should not play politics.

I still can't read minds but I bet you think that's what Barr is doing. 

More to come... (Barr appointed a prosecutor to look into the unmasking of Gen Flynn).

JR

 

[Matador]

Perhaps Judge Sullivan is just watching a different movie?

 

[hodad]

I still can't read minds but I bet you think that's what Barr is doing. 

JR

You still can't read minds and you think it's not what Barr is doing? 

Here's an interpretation of Sullivan for you:  "Flynn walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, DOJ prosecutors have presented overwhenlming evidence he's a duck, Flynn himself has repeatedly admitted to being a duck, and now Barr wants me to say he's not a duck?  What the actual eff?"

You need to start believing your lying eyes, John, and quit immersing yourself in the WSJ Op-Ed page.

 

[JohnRoberts]

You still can't read minds and you think it's not what Barr is doing? 

Here's an interpretation of Sullivan for you:  "Flynn walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, DOJ prosecutors have presented overwhenlming evidence he's a duck, Flynn himself has repeatedly admitted to being a duck, and now Barr wants me to say he's not a duck?  What the actual eff?"

Judges are supposed to be neutral (justice is blind) and decide matters of law, not prosecute someone after the actual prosecutor has already dropped the case. The judge is playing team politics, not doing his job.

You need to start believing your lying eyes, John, and quit immersing yourself in the WSJ Op-Ed page.

Whatever insult makes you feel better, I am actually capable of forming an opinion independantly. (I do read the WSJ and find it better than most other newspapers, but they all have some bias.) I just checked and the WSJ editorial page is consumed by weightier topics. This (Flynn case) is political small ball and pretty much a done deal. 

I think Barr did show some interest in investigating the rampant unmasking for apparent political purposes by the last administration, but Gen Flynn is just one of the multiple american citizens unmasked.

JR

PS: For another coincidence Bill Barr was AG when the Rodney King incident happened.