Firewire Board?
- Thread starter jcb
- Start date
Help Support GroupDIY Audio Forum:
Did I post this info about this Firewire Board on the wrong forum?
I'm a newbie here.
I think something using this chip in some kind of device between some good outboard gear and a DAW would be awesome for some people.
It looks like it has routing possibilities that might be good for surround sound too.
http://wavefrontsemi.com/
Read up a little on it on the above site and chime in with your thoughts. Thanks.
I'm a newbie here.
I think something using this chip in some kind of device between some good outboard gear and a DAW would be awesome for some people.
It looks like it has routing possibilities that might be good for surround sound too.
http://wavefrontsemi.com/
Read up a little on it on the above site and chime in with your thoughts. Thanks.
I'll move you to "the lab"
Jakob E.
Jakob E.
asm
Well-known member
i dont think many people around here know how to work with dsp style chips, totally different than what you see around here for all the projects.
And I was told - by someone that should know - that implementing firewire is a thing that can make grown men cry..
Jakob E.
Jakob E.
Flatpicker
Well-known member
Their web site isn't too helpful, is it? :?
I dunno about the grown men crying to do firewire. I think wavefront's website is ok, I like the blonde, she looks hot.
I think wavefront has some courses (maybe the blonde teaches them?) and can provide some help with design, I dunno.
But it would be very cool if there were a readily available Standardized Board for Firewire that everyone could use...DIY'er or Pro Audio Design Person alike.
I think wavefront has some courses (maybe the blonde teaches them?) and can provide some help with design, I dunno.
But it would be very cool if there were a readily available Standardized Board for Firewire that everyone could use...DIY'er or Pro Audio Design Person alike.
Flatpicker
Well-known member
See Dan Larvy's last post in this thread: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/4417/0
Could this be the chip he is speaking of?
Could this be the chip he is speaking of?
AudioHammer
Well-known member
>>And I was told - by someone that should know - that implementing >>firewire is a thing that can make grown men cry..
Yes, I am a firmware engineer and I have worked with USB and Firewire technologies for about 4 years. It will try the patience of an experienced firmware engineer. It also helps to have a $5k to $15k US dollars Firewire protocol analyzer to see what is going on when the chip is not working the way you intended.
As an example, I worked on the USB / Firewire drivers in a well know MP3 player (hint: think fruit) and it took several months to get the FW transactions on that thing working reliably putting in 80 hours a week.
I would rather buy a professionally manufactured product and enjoy making music than DIY Firewire and go through that torture again! :evil:
Yes, I am a firmware engineer and I have worked with USB and Firewire technologies for about 4 years. It will try the patience of an experienced firmware engineer. It also helps to have a $5k to $15k US dollars Firewire protocol analyzer to see what is going on when the chip is not working the way you intended.
As an example, I worked on the USB / Firewire drivers in a well know MP3 player (hint: think fruit) and it took several months to get the FW transactions on that thing working reliably putting in 80 hours a week.
I would rather buy a professionally manufactured product and enjoy making music than DIY Firewire and go through that torture again! :evil:
Hi AudioHammer,
I feel your pain..!
My reference were some of the heavy firmware guys from our local TC Electronic.. Needless to say that they don't like working with the standard either.
..and welcome to "the Lab" btw.. :razz:
Jakob E.
I feel your pain..!
My reference were some of the heavy firmware guys from our local TC Electronic.. Needless to say that they don't like working with the standard either.
..and welcome to "the Lab" btw.. :razz:
Jakob E.
AudioHammer
Well-known member
Gyraf,
Thanks for the Welcome...TC Electronic, very nice DSP gear! I worked for Eventide on the DSP4000 and several DSP boxes and the Paris DAW for Ensoniq Corp.
Maybe we can get some help from the TC Electronic engineers and we can develop some cool DSP convolution based DIY analog simulators here at The Lab?? :grin:
Thanks for the Welcome...TC Electronic, very nice DSP gear! I worked for Eventide on the DSP4000 and several DSP boxes and the Paris DAW for Ensoniq Corp.
Maybe we can get some help from the TC Electronic engineers and we can develop some cool DSP convolution based DIY analog simulators here at The Lab?? :grin:
I understand that TC is involved in some way with this new firewire chip, so we may see future products that use this chip from them. OTOH, Wavefront Semi has its own forum and there may be more help from them than you might at first expect.
I do know that the people at Sanewave.com took the Wavefront training and are very impressed with this DiceII firewire chip. This chip looks like it has all kinds of cool routing possibiles and can handle many different sample rates.
Thus, this firewire chip is worth a close look.
Also that's a cool idea to do some DSP stuff here. Esp. as it appears that there are some competent people here...unlike me, I am nothng but a frickin' newbie.
I do know that the people at Sanewave.com took the Wavefront training and are very impressed with this DiceII firewire chip. This chip looks like it has all kinds of cool routing possibiles and can handle many different sample rates.
Thus, this firewire chip is worth a close look.
Also that's a cool idea to do some DSP stuff here. Esp. as it appears that there are some competent people here...unlike me, I am nothng but a frickin' newbie.
i don't want to rain on anyone's parade here - as some of you know, i'm a big fan of the ol' digits 'n transmitting them here and there.
There's one big stopper with this device. I think it's the same for the bridgeco solution, as well as the TI solution (those are the 3 players I can think of...)
BGA packages. For those of you who don't know what BGA is... it stands for Ball Grid Array. Rather than having nice little legs coming off the chip, you have small balls of solder.
The idea behind it is that you can get more control on things like capacitance etc + fit more pins per package. The difficulty comes with developing boards for them.
They can't be hand soldered. you can't actually see the pins to solder them! I've heard some people can do it in an oven, but then, there's a strict temperature profile that must be followed.
Once you've got that far, if your board doesn't work, you may have to do things like XRAY to work out which pins didn't solder etc.
Oh, and don't forget, like most high speed processors (the chip contains a processor) you'll most likely need at least 4 layers - 2 for signal, 2 for power.
So, assuming we've got the chip on the board we've designed, (woohoo!) - most of the time, there's more to the chip than just plugging in I2S streams and expecting it to work. There's usually a bit of programming that sits around it. Whilst we probably have the resource here to do it - uploading the code, or burning flash devices to contain the code doesn't really fill me with confidence.
I don't want to crap on your idea though. I'm sure there have been many discussions in this forum which follow your idea (I started one or two mself).
Personally, taking experience from some of teh customers that I talk to on this topic - the solutions to the DIY'er are becoming more and more clear.
Leave the PC interface to the high-quantity, windows/mac driver writing soundcard guys, and hack into it with our own mic/ADC/DAC Frontends.
So far, the most obvious way I've seen of doing this is with ADAT optical. Although, the only problem there is that you're then limited to 96KHz (4 channel ADAT).
BTW - TC is involved with the new wavefront chip. My understanding is that TC Technologies Canada designed the chip. Wavefront are acting as the distributors for the chip.
Ah... It feels good to be posting again.
Toodle Pip.
R
There's one big stopper with this device. I think it's the same for the bridgeco solution, as well as the TI solution (those are the 3 players I can think of...)
BGA packages. For those of you who don't know what BGA is... it stands for Ball Grid Array. Rather than having nice little legs coming off the chip, you have small balls of solder.
The idea behind it is that you can get more control on things like capacitance etc + fit more pins per package. The difficulty comes with developing boards for them.
They can't be hand soldered. you can't actually see the pins to solder them! I've heard some people can do it in an oven, but then, there's a strict temperature profile that must be followed.
Once you've got that far, if your board doesn't work, you may have to do things like XRAY to work out which pins didn't solder etc.
Oh, and don't forget, like most high speed processors (the chip contains a processor) you'll most likely need at least 4 layers - 2 for signal, 2 for power.
So, assuming we've got the chip on the board we've designed, (woohoo!) - most of the time, there's more to the chip than just plugging in I2S streams and expecting it to work. There's usually a bit of programming that sits around it. Whilst we probably have the resource here to do it - uploading the code, or burning flash devices to contain the code doesn't really fill me with confidence.
I don't want to crap on your idea though. I'm sure there have been many discussions in this forum which follow your idea (I started one or two mself).
Personally, taking experience from some of teh customers that I talk to on this topic - the solutions to the DIY'er are becoming more and more clear.
Leave the PC interface to the high-quantity, windows/mac driver writing soundcard guys, and hack into it with our own mic/ADC/DAC Frontends.
So far, the most obvious way I've seen of doing this is with ADAT optical. Although, the only problem there is that you're then limited to 96KHz (4 channel ADAT).
BTW - TC is involved with the new wavefront chip. My understanding is that TC Technologies Canada designed the chip. Wavefront are acting as the distributors for the chip.
Ah... It feels good to be posting again.
Toodle Pip.
R
Were there's a will, there's a way.
Ok, you've raised some obstacles, but surely there must be a way to get a board done.
And think of it, what if the little firewire chip board became a standard? What if everybody used it?
That situation would bring the price down so low that both pro audio design people and DIY's could use the little guy and everybody would be compatible. That's a nice picture, isn't it?
I dunno if it's realistic, but it's a nice picture. I'm told the code for this firwire chip is "Open Source," so, that's also good.
Might mean rapid proto-typing.
Ok, you've raised some obstacles, but surely there must be a way to get a board done.
And think of it, what if the little firewire chip board became a standard? What if everybody used it?
That situation would bring the price down so low that both pro audio design people and DIY's could use the little guy and everybody would be compatible. That's a nice picture, isn't it?
I dunno if it's realistic, but it's a nice picture. I'm told the code for this firwire chip is "Open Source," so, that's also good.
Might mean rapid proto-typing.
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