First Steps - A mixing console

[magnified]

Hello!

I'm Joshua, a mixer/engineer in LA (originally from outside Chicago) and I want to build a console. Yeah I know so does everyone and their brother. I know there's a ton of older threads and I've been reading those too, but from when I was a runner at Conway to when I left to do freelance from Resonate, there's just nothing like mixing on a console. It also brings some kind of magic to the room, it's the first thing people see and want to take pictures in front of. It brings some kind of legitimacy I guess lol.

Anyways, I know this is going to take a very long time and I'm still a noob so I’ll be dropping by every once in a while with updates and please if anyone has any ideas or see any huge piles of crap I’m going to step in let me know! Below is the first step, a rough guide to what I'm thinking. Again please let me know if I'm doing anything straight up stupid. I hope to learn a lot, if anything at least I’ll gain knowledge and a fun hobby to forever mess with!

As you can see, It’s going to be based around the ACA bus and Line Amp cards that Jeff at Classic API has.

This is going to be a long ride. 

 

[kambo]

This is going to be a long ride. 

u can bet on that  ;D

 

[electric_diaries]

Hi Josh,

Building a full sized console is a great project! However you might find it a little (EXTREMELY) overwhelming if it is your first project. A good place to start might be with some of the lunchbox modules that you want to add on the top row.

All the best!

 

[ruffrecords]

A lot of modern consoles have a very shallow slope and a huge number of buttons per channel. Often this means you need arms like an Orang-utan  to reach the furthest  controls. I have never really understood why it needs 16 separate push buttons to select one of 8 stereo buses. Why not a single rotary switch.? Also, I find it hard to think of an occasion when one channel needs to be routed to all five AUXes. As you are designing from scratch how abut taking a bit of time to have a long hard look at the ergonomics?

Cheers

Ian

 

[JohnRoberts]

I know two different guys who built their own DIY consoles back in the '70s-'80s. Both used them in their own recording studios for years.  Neither when they were finished said, "that was a good idea I think I'll build another one!". Even professional console designers are rarely 100% satisfied with their own designs but after a while doing it there are less mistakes to fix in commercial designs.

I looked at your drawing and it is impressive. You even spelled "buses" correctly (in one place).

Recent advances and cost reductions in digital consoles has reduced the resale price of many decent used analog consoles. For a fraction of the work, and cost, and pain, of building a new console from scratch, you can probably pick up a good used console as a starting point. Depending on the console, you could address any weak points in it's design.  Some of the more popular ones even have threads around the internet describing upgrades.

Of course it's your time, your money, and your blood and sweat, so do what floats your boat. Good luck, some of here actually know how much work is involved.

JR

 

[thermionic]

Have you got a source for the dual-concentric pots yet? For the price that State Electronics will charge you for Claro or Mod-pots alone, you could probably buy a s-hand analogue console...

 

[magnified]

A good place to start might be with some of the lunchbox modules that you want to add on the top row.

All the best!

I recently put together a VP28 because I had been using a few VP26s at a local studio on drums & guitar, I absolutely love them! I'm definitely going to purchase a few more and I was also thinking about taking on a couple EQs but I haven’t personally used any of the eq kits yet. Any recommendations?

A lot of modern consoles have a very shallow slope and a huge number of buttons per channel. Often this means you need arms like an Orang-utan  to reach the furthest  controls. I have never really understood why it needs 16 separate push buttons to select one of 8 stereo buses. Why not a single rotary switch.? Also, I find it hard to think of an occasion when one channel needs to be routed to all five AUXes. As you are designing from scratch how abut taking a bit of time to have a long hard look at the ergonomics?

I’m actually doing some measurements for personal reach as well as where the speakers sit and how comfortably my hands will reach and rest on the fader cushion(is there an actual name for that front cushion on a console?)

As for the 16 individual buttons, I was totally thinking about that yesterday after I finished the mock up! It can probably have one button for each stereo bus. (I just always see the two buttons on neve, ssl, etc.) I see what you’re getting at with bus selection but I do a TON of parallel compression, hence the 8 stereo buses. Also, I am often VERY FX heavy. Long Reverb, Short Reverb, Delay 1, Delay 2, Harmonizer, other FX etc. If I’m making this, I want to make sure that I’ll have a little more than I think I’ll need ya know? And while this is going to be a working console, I’m sure I’ll be doing a ton of mixing/eq/compression ITB as well. Sometimes I get upwards of 100 tracks… it's crazy!

Even professional console designers are rarely 100% satisfied with their own designs but after a while doing it there are less mistakes to fix in commercial designs.

I looked at your drawing and it is impressive. You even spelled "buses" correctly (in one place).

Recent advances and cost reductions in digital consoles has reduced the resale price of many decent used analog consoles. For a fraction of the work, and cost, and pain, of building a new console from scratch, you can probably pick up a good used console as a starting point.

Of course it's your time, your money, and your blood and sweat, so do what floats your boat. Good luck, some of here actually know how much work is involved.

JR

Haha, thanks!
Dang it! The buses mistake is common with me. I had always accidentally added the extra “S”, it’s just hard to kick a habit


I don’t want a lower end console that will probably have a bunch of problems. I want to be able to design it and make it mine based on my needs. Heck, even if it isn’t 100% the way I want it, it’s still going to look amazing for clients not to mention a good story! I have a client who has a control24 and people still line up to take a picture in front of that ugly thing…. a big stupid dirty giant outdated mouse lol.

I understand it’s going to take a ton of time and cash, I’m okay with that, as long as I can do it slowly and piece it together. Also, it’s a way for me to gain knowledge and experience with electronics. Something I hadn’t really cared about until the last few years.


THANKS GUYS!!!!

 

[pucho812]

FWIW  if you have all the time in the world and unlimited funds you can do whatever but if you lack one or both then best to go other routes.  If totally analog is how you wish to go can easily get your hands on a  number of older analog desks that are in pretty good shape these days.  Otherwise your best doing some cost saving options like avoid concentric pots. That is unless your buying in mass quantities which is how the manufactures do it. But then what would be the point if your only building one.

 

[magnified]

I saw that Classic API has some, but you're right price wise. That's something that could bring the price down quite a bit and maybe I can adjust that to one or two stereo auxes and three mono, but honestly I don't expect to finish this in a year so if I can just take a decent size chunk a few times a year, that'll be fine for me. Also, I'm good at scouring for the best prices and finding ways to get around things. I recently picked up 20 brand new Alps motorized K faders for 140 bucks.

I've been pondering this idea for a few months now and I realize the cost and time involved it in. I'm ok with it taking a very long time and a very large chuck of money over that time,


Oh btw Pucho812 I love that quote!
"Every mic has a purpose it might be a door stop or a hammer, but every mic has a purpose."

 

[gar381]

Have you got a source for the dual-concentric pots yet? For the price that State Electronics will charge you for Claro or Mod-pots alone, you could probably buy a s-hand analogue console...

Jeff's got some new much cheaperdual BI pots

http://classicapi.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=50_131

Colin at AML has a nice selection of dual-concentric omegs as  well that are
Much cheaper than State Electronics.

Best

GARY

 

[Gareth Connor]

Hi Joshua,

Be prepared for a wild, wild ride on your project.

Pucho812's note on dual concentric pots is only one of many dozens of points to be aware of and to consider.

There are a whole lot of aspects of such a project that can easily bite you on the tail, this is but a small list of the first things that come to mind:
Everything that is not made-up of pre-built or pre-designed sub-assemblies will go through at least 4 phases - conceive, calculate, design, produce. Expect to invest heavily on making 1-off prototypes to prove that your design is right and cannot be bettered. Even after doing this type of work for over 30 years to put food on the table and keep a roof over my head, I don't always create a design that goes straight to production.... It is the target, I try, sometimes I achieve it, sometimes not.

Metalwork for modules will have a load of decisions to be made.... How do the PCBs fix to the front panels? Design of the frame for strength, rigidity, stability. How do the modules fix to the frame? What is the total weight of the modules and wiring? What switch types? What pot types? Types of control knobs? Switch buttons: are they engraved, or printed, or is the text on the front panel, and is there space for the text?
Console power supply.... don't fall into the trap of leaving it until the last stage of the project..... I know of console manufacturers who have done that!
Electromech design (getting the electronics onto PCBs and then into modules whilst maintaining performance) can be fun.

The hard cold reality of creating a console is that getting a mic amp, equalizer, compressor, etc., to work on the bench or as a breadboard or as a stand-alone device is one thing. It's not without it's pitfalls, but it is relatively easy. Getting 32 of all of them, plus summing, plus monitoring, plus routing to work together and for the whole system to achieve an acceptable performance (noise, crosstalk, distortion, frequency response) is another matter entirely. This applies equally to connecting together a set of professionally designed and pre-built modules or cards as it does to connecting together a set of modules or cards that you create yourself: just because it works on its own is not a guarantee that the complete system will work to the same level or performance.

I will follow with interest.

GJC.

 

[Bassniac]

Don't underestimate the cost of the "Frontpanels" of your console. Custom made designs are expensive. I would go for 500 series modules and perhaps Purushas 24Ch API summing boards. Faders instead of pots. The only thing that you'll have to design is Aux Sends, FX sends and Monitoring. The rest can be calculated from CAPI Store plus a PSU. And that will be a major problem for a first project.

Cheers.

 

[JohnRoberts]

+1 to what Gareth said...  While the elctro-mech design is a little easier these days with CAD tools that can test for fit before you knock any metal there will always be gotcha's.

Gareth just glossed over the potential for interactions and interface issues when you put tens of sub-assemblies together into one frame. I'm sure he can share some good stories.

Just one quick one, I had a case where noise in 3 terminal regulators used on each channel strip, combined to corrupt the integrity of a common ground node. This is all subtle way down in the dirt kind of stuff, but when you make a high performance path, the noise floor, and crosstalk, and every little thing matters. (I had to black-ball one 3 terminal regulator vendor, when they refused to spec their output noise, and all the other vendors were quiet.)

Using building blocks like API modules that were designed to be cobbled together into larger systems may have already anticipated some of the common interface issues, but don't ASSume because a handful work nice together that 20 will.  And all the connectors and extra I/O buffers will be a cost burden not suffered by a dedicated design.

I like to joke that consoles and power amps are the hardest simple products to design. In principle it's all pretty simple, but the details can mess you up.  8)

JR
 

 

[G-Sun]

I've built a few diy-boxes,
but I consider myself totally under-qualified to take on a big console-project.
You need a lot of electronic and mechanical knowledge and experience.
Still then, I believe it's not a project for the faint of hearts. Just m2c

 

[pucho812]

where some of this can be easier is using things like altium designer which also run in combination with solid works for metalworking stuff.  Can have a complete circuit and metal work done in computer well before you even make one. It totally cuts down on mistakes but altium and solid works is real pricy in itself

 

[ricardo]

However you might find it a little (EXTREMELY) overwhelming if it is your first project.

It will also cost you MUCH more than buying a big 2nd hand Calrec, SSL, Amek or Neve.  That's if you ever finish it.

Note the replies from those who have been professionally involved with big analogue mixer design & manufacture.

 

[gar381]

magnified..

If you got the a lot of  time, resources and undying  will,  don't let us old guys
discourage you!  This will be quite un undertaking but you will learn TONS!!
Plus the first time you record thru your masterpiece will be one of the most
satisfying experiences of your life.

You have come to the right place for much advice and support.

Best of luck with this project.

GARY

 

[magnified]

Thanks Gary! 

 

[abbey road d enfer]

I tend to agree with most of the cautionary comments expressed in particular by ricardo, JR and Gareth, but if I had received these warnings when I was 26, I would never have started making mixers, and making a living out of it, so let's not cut the wings of chicks that are learning to fly. 
After all, DIY has always been a great training ground for amateurs who became prominent professionals.
That being said, it is true that making a mixer takes a lot of resources (and foolishness) that may not be compatible with one's social obligations, such as work, marriage, children, politics, sex ...

 

[djgout]

As someone who's worked on hundreds of desks I can say go for it! Cost will easily be way beyond what you're imagining....
There will be tons of little mistakes and unforseen obstacles. It won't be worth it in the end if you don't plan ahead for what your needs actually are.  I have been kicking around an input module design for years and it will probably never happen. I suggest first writing down exactly what functions you want the input/routing module to have and then just doing a diagram of the actual signal flow before getting into the specifics. Its the little things like deciding how to swap an EQ between the channel and monitor path, how to handle necessities such as solos and mutes, and just basics like swapping a pan pot in and out that can get really tricky fast.  Absolutely don't hold anything out on the control room section. I can't tell you how last minute most control  room sections are.....vintage API? Pretty much an afterthought....

Things like metalwork tolerances and thickness of powder coating can bite you hard. I did an inline replacement input/routing module for an existing desk once and the faceplates were a few thousandths too wide. They left the metal shop and went straight to powder coating where they were coated twice adding a few more, then straight to screen printing. By the time I had the finished faceplates in hand and laid out in the frame channel 1 lined up fine with the EQ s and faders but by the time it was down to channel 32 they were off by about an eighth.  Be very prepared for screw ups like that!