Formal Electronics Education

[bcarso]

spice LIES.

There are some categories, where SPICE LIES much.
- OP amp filters in A.C. analysis - A.C. analysis get result while circuit is unstable.
=> try to simulate filter with transient analysis with strong signal input (with zero signal SPICE
does not look for unstability)

-Spice is based on parasitics. Try to simulate simple "behavioral logic" sequential circuit
and You will get error report instead of result.
=> add simple small RC integrator into !digital! signal path and SPICE then converges up.

Spice also Lies in noise simulation via nonrespecting 1/f noises.


For nontrivial circuit SPICE simulation is not valid and sample must be builded. But SPICE can
help while debugging of real circuit, if its malfunction is fatal. But maybe for future - next
NON-SPICE simulator will be based on the graph theory rather than network matrices and
will be much better. Remember: SPICE is program from 1970-ies!!!

A new smarter analog simulator is overdue, indeed.

I agree that one should not rely on Spice if at all possible in the early days.  I was a very late adopter and I think it helped me immensely.

Recently I've had the experience of going between simulator and bench while debugging and optimizing a class D amplifier.  What is fun is when I tweak the spice model to get the bench results, then change the model and go back to the bench.  After a while and with a lot of tricks they get to agree pretty well.  But I think even more fun is when it is much faster to make physical circuit changes on the bench and look at the performance results---the simulator even with lots of fast memory and a 3GHz pentium class machine takes far longer---if the step sizes are made small enough to give accurate results.  For example, I may have a run for 500uS or longer with 1ns step sizes and many nodes, and be doing fourier analysis along with the usual transient analysis.  And don't get me started on the stupid plotting routine, which is hard disk intensive and takes often longer than the simulation itself.

But as I say I was a late adopter.  As xmvlk points out, the symbolic calculations that spice does for the frequency domain go way wrong when the circuit is in fact oscillatory.  This was brought home and induced me, ironically, to finally succumb to using simulators:  a very bright guy had done a whole lot of work coming up with a whole bank of Friend-Delyannis general biquad filters.  He had a nearly thesis-like publication to accompany the work, including wonderful amounts of math as to how he derived the values and why they were optimal.  Trouble was, he made one critical sign error early on!

I confidently handed the values to a tech and he put some of the filters together.  They oscillated like banshees.  I suspected he had done something wrong, and he said "Well, I plugged some of these into the simulator and they all oscillate!"  Despite that, the Bode plots looked like the desired amplitude domain results.

We took this information back to the designer, who had also skipped the transient response simulator verification.  Red-faced (and he was just leaving the company, which made things worse-looking---this was to have been one of his parting shots and his great triumph), he found his mistake and generated a new set of values, which worked.

And I decided it was time to learn the damn program.

 

[mrphotodude]

I think i know where you are coming from bahrens..
i actually am more into the electronic end then the musical end these days.
I was going to go to the conservatory for recording arts and sciences (CRAS) but decided to pursue digital and graphic design instead.
what a crap industry that is to be in these days!
Electronics have been a hobby for years and i wanted to get further into it...
I am going to the advanced electronics school for the US Navy in a few months.
I just hope its as advanced as the paperwork shows.
Of course, then i have to do a service for 6 years...but, at least i can hopefully tame the spongebrain.

Books man...
Books and forums like this for learning are the best.
Hands on is great, but I really dont know many schools to teach the electronics end.
Good luck in your quest though!

 

[dale116dot7]

I think the best electronics engineering education would be a technician's certificate from a trade school, followed by a four year degree program which will get you the theory. I didn't do this, but I did keep electronics up as a hobby for years before, during, and after my formal education, and that's probably even better. There are some engineers that can't design their way out of a wet paper bag with a stick of dynamite. I always thought I could not stand being able to design equipment without having the ability to do technician work to bring up that design.

-Dale

 

[museic]

bahrens - cool you posted this question. I'm also from Minnesota (Duluth) and am thinking about the same kinda stuff. I've thought about going to the Twin Cities to do EE. Duluth has a ECE program, but I really don't want to learn how to write code and all. I think I'm heading out west to get residency somewhere else (expand my horizons a bit) and make up my mind with what to do (I'm also a wildland firefighter so that pays the bills for now).

Personally recording and playing music is what I love to do in my spare time and I never want to have to stress out about making a living from it. Engineering is a very demanding profession and requires long hours, so I'm not too sure it will allow me the spare time to make music as much as I'd like. But it is a very rewarding career I think and lots of knowledge that coincides with recording music, so they do reinforce each other.

I don't mean to hijack the thread but...

dale116dot7 - I've been interested in going into some type of alternative energy engineering as I've figured it will be in demand for the rest of my life. Do you have any leads on what engineering schools are getting students ready to work on this stuff? I looked around a month ago and didn't really find many specific programs in alternative energy. I'm thinking geothermal would be interesting. I'd also be interested in battery technology for future electric cars and stuff - wish I could buy one of those Tesla Roadsters  ;D

Any leads would be awesome!!

Thanks! and good luck with your choices bahrens!

 

[BradAvenson]

I looked around a month ago and didn't really find many specific programs in alternative energy. I'm thinking geothermal would be interesting. I'd also be interested in battery technology for future electric cars and stuff - wish I could buy one of those Tesla Roadsters  ;D

http://poptech.com/popcasts/popcasts.aspx?lang=&viewcastid=219

Watch this if you are thinking about alternative energy.  Good stuff. 

 

[Afarawayland]

I think the best electronics engineering education would be a technician's certificate from a trade school, followed by a four year degree program which will get you the theory. I didn't do this, but I did keep electronics up as a hobby for years before, during, and after my formal education, and that's probably even better. There are some engineers that can't design their way out of a wet paper bag with a stick of dynamite. I always thought I could not stand being able to design equipment without having the ability to do technician work to bring up that design.

-Dale

Thanks to the original poster and to all that have contributed thus far. 

I have a BS is recording industry management from a 4 yr school in 2005.  I work in a studio in my home town that stays busy in spurts, do live sound for a local band, and live sound in a neighboring city's music hall.  Audio work here is never a weekly schedule.  Back in 2007 I started a 6 semester trade school pursuing electronics technician training.  I will be finishing it in the spring, and plan to start working/attending EE courses.

As far as my local technician training goes, we did a lot of repetition of basic electronic calculations.  Starting with DC and moving to AC, from series, parallel, RC, RL, LCR, and so forth.  We learned about the different types of components and what they do/why.  We learned how to use test equipment, methods for troubleshooting, etc. We even get optional exposure to subjects like motor controls, robotics, PLCs, RF, etc.  All of our math uses basic algebraic formulas.

The one thing that my teachers stayed away from was discussing design principles.  They told me that for that I'd need to go the EE route.  EE in my state require a full Calculus sequence, along with Diff equations and linear algebra, Physics with Cal, Chemistry... so, if you're planning on venturing into EE, be prepared to face more math than medical doctors need, and just as much science, anatomy/physiology excluded. Unless you're going biomed.

Hopefully, through my own experiments and theoretical course work to come in EE, I can get where the rest of you guys are.

To the original poster, if you can afford it time/money-wise, get the EE.  We are entering a world of credentials.

 

[jackies]

World of credentials? You bet!

So basically, even to apply for this particular job, I would need at least an associate or a bachelor degree. EE or CS.  I'm not in the US atm, so I was looking at online options. DeVue and such. Diploma mills. Anyone has any experience with online education? Any recommendations for something cheap and fast? DeVue seems to be too expensive for what it is...