Global warming

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Brian Roth

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 20, 2005
Messages
3,641
Location
Salina Kansas
11:30 PM here in central Kansas on this pleasant April evening.....errrr....wait...it's mid-July.  Hmmm..temps in my long-time hometown of Okla. City are also in the mid 60's.  Both locales have forecasts dipping down into perhaps the 50's tonight.

"OH....if it's too hot ***OR*** too cold, it's all because of climate change caused by human activities or cow farts."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyp9fh-u4w8

<g>

Bri


PS, I guess if that HUGE volcano under Yellowstone Park blows its top, it's because of too many fat human butts sitting on chairs and reading Facebook posts, thereby squishing the crust of the earth.  POIT!

http://www.davidrhoden.com/blog/index.php/weblog/comments/poit/


 
Sorry, I have to bite on this one. I assume you are being comical?

If not....

Global warming isn't some figment of the imagination or giant scientific conspiracy.

It is very real.

There is an incredible amount of observational and scientific peer-reviewed data to back it up. Just because the temperature right now isn't warmer or colder, doesn't mean that global warming isn't real. As unfortunate as the name global warming is, It's not all about just the temperature on any given day. I'm not some tree-hugging hippie either; I'd rather it not be real, but it is. Water levels are rising around the world regardless of the temperature in America. Whether it is humans that are at fault or not is irrelevant to the reality that many many places around the world look likely to be under water rather soon.
 
I wouldn't say knowing the cause of global warming is irrelevant. It pretty damn important IMO!

As far as I know the scientific consensus is we are the problem.

 
tomas1808 said:
I wouldn't say knowing the cause of global warming is irrelevant. It pretty damn important IMO!

As far as I know the scientific consensus is we are the problem.

I agree with you. My point was that it doesn't matter what the cause is, it IS happening regardless.
 
Brian, you are talking about the weather in your area, not about climate. Weather is short-term. But climate is long-term. And local (as in your area) changes may differ from the global (overall) trend.

Here is the latest (it does not look good):

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/07/15/april_may_and_june_2014_is_the_warmest_three_month_period_ever.html

The numbers don't lie.
 
tomas1808 said:
As far as I know the scientific consensus is we are the problem.

Which is the root of the controversy. Science never has been and never will be about consensus. It is about the truth. When Copernicus proposed the sun as the centre of the solar system, the consensus was that the earth was at the centre.

The facts, as I understand them are:

1. It has been warmer than it is now many times in the past. The most recent was in the Medieval warm period when it was hot enough to grow grapes in London (that's how Vine street got its name).

2. It has generally been getting gradually warmer (apart from the odd ice age) for the last 50,000 years and the sea has been rising gradually all that time. It is not that long ago that the entire North Sea was a verdant plain and England was connected by land to continental Europe.

3. CO2 is not the most important greenhouse gas. Water vapour is. It's called clouds. They are created by the enormous energy of the sun from the vast reserves of water in the oceans that cover 70% of the earth's surface. It is a fairly blunt negative feedback system. Sun's heat creates water vapour which form clouds which block the sun and reduce the amount of water vapour produced.

4. Increased CO2 has been touted as the primary mechanism of man made global warming. Unfortunately its effects are small so its proponents have advanced a kind of positive feedback theory to magnify its effects. All models of climate prediction are based on this unproven theory.

Cheers

Ian
 
Climate science is sufficiently complex and multi-variate to be difficult for us mere mortals to grasp in it's entirety.

The gaps in what passes for climate science are huge. Inconsistencies in the quality of historical temperature records, and atmospheric composition.  It is the nature of these scientists to use whatever data they have and form definitive conclusions which over the decades have flip-flopped between global cooling and warming.

We are reasonably capable of taking our current temperature so I do not dispute the claim that we're getting warmer. What I do have issues with are the sweeping conclusions about cause, rate of change, and remedy. 

It is a given that our surface temperature is driven by solar output (which varies) and how much of that heat we re-radiate back into space.  Upper-atmospheric particulate matter will reflect energy back into space and cause temporary global cooling, like we have measured after major volcanic eruptions. OTOH water vapor (clouds) and the popular bogey man these days CO2, can reduce radiation losses trapping heat in the atmosphere.

The geologic record indicates that we have had warmer and colder periods in the past. It kind of goes with the neighborhood to expect future change too.  A larger surprise would be the global temperature not changing over time.

Some well known (Chicago) economists looked at this question years ago and suggested that with our crude understanding of heating/cooling mechanisms we could take direct action to cool or warm the globe by grabbing these known levers and giving a push or pull. I do not advocate doing anything like this yet. IMO we are still bumping around in the dark trying to find our ass let alone know the answers.  Climate is very complex so we must be very careful before we mess with mother nature. First do no harm.

The full scale attack on carbon and fossil fuel is consistent with government's universal appetite for power and control over all aspects of the economy. If they can stand up some natural disaster as an avoidable calamity to justify their power grab, the sheeple will think it's all good. 

The best I can say is that I do not know with any certainty, but I am pretty damn sure they don't know either. I consider myself relatively capable with science and I have been paying close attention to this for several decades. One of my first jobs back in the '60s was working in a machine shop that supported oceanographic research ships (for Columbia University). These ships would map the ocean floor with a form of sonar, and take cores of the ocean floor which get reviewed later to form a historical record from the sedimentation layers.

We are prudent to invest in researching this further, but the carbon tax and similar strategies just seems like politicians doing what they do.  Nobody believes that such a scheme will really do anything more than make people feel better about themselves, while saddling the economy with huge costs from this global guilt trip.

JR
 
Climate is very complex so we must be very careful before we mess with mother nature. First do no harm.

In light of this, isn't it preposterous that we (humans) are radically transforming the earth surface and atmosphere in a short blink of time (speaking geologically)?
Deforestation and burning large amounts of stored hydrocarbons are on a significant scale with respect to the planet's size.
I don't know how anyone in their right mind can not see the wisdom in moving to a more sustainable path than the one humanity is on (using more and more energy from fossil fuel sources).

The full scale attack on carbon and fossil fuel is consistent with government's universal appetite for power and control over all aspects of the economy. If they can stand up some natural disaster as an avoidable calamity to justify their power grab, the sheeple will think it's all good. 

This is silly wing nut propaganda. I would rather you work to find facts to support your views than regurgitate nonsense like this.
 
dmp said:
Climate is very complex so we must be very careful before we mess with mother nature. First do no harm.

In light of this, isn't it preposterous that we (humans) are radically transforming the earth surface and atmosphere in a short blink of time (speaking geologically)?
That to is the nature of the acceleration of human development. The largest increases in energy consumption are from developing markets as their populations escape poverty.

I have personally worked to reduce my energy foot print, and see silly waste every where I look.

The amount of energy we waste heating and cooling under-insulated homes is obscene.

I do not know If I have posted results here but I have been experimenting with making a slow cooker using a Peltier device to cool my kitchen while cooking a meal. The Peltier technology is not optimal for this for several reasons, but related to this development I have also experimented with building a heat capture box (igloo) to capture heat from cooking inside with a 1/2" rigid polystyrene sheathing. The difference in more food cooking while using less input heat is remarkable. Not to mention less air conditioning required. win-win. Admittedly the Peltier cooker could be a win-win-win for summer use... but that is not to be.

Historically low cost energy has led us to make these wasteful decisions over many decades. The rising cost of energy will drive us to be more efficiency conscious in the future.
Deforestation and burning large amounts of stored hydrocarbons are on a significant scale with respect to the planet's size.
I don't know how anyone in their right mind can not see the wisdom in moving to a more sustainable path than the one humanity is on (using more and more energy from fossil fuel sources).
Never said that we shouldn't conserve resources. We just need some thoughtful balance.
The full scale attack on carbon and fossil fuel is consistent with government's universal appetite for power and control over all aspects of the economy. If they can stand up some natural disaster as an avoidable calamity to justify their power grab, the sheeple will think it's all good. 

This is silly wing nut propaganda. I would rather you work to find facts to support your views than regurgitate nonsense like this.
Sticks and stones...  I am capable of forming this opinion all by myself. That you might consider me a wing-nut is not surprising. I am not big on conspiracy theories, but have been a student of government and large bureaucracies for a long time. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, maybe it is a duck. 

JR
 
It pays to review history while making judgements about the present.
The emissions legislation in the US, while being expensive, was a unqualified success. Without gov regulation, this improvement in our lives would not have happened, left to the direction of business and the free market.

The Constitution has safe guards to balance the power of the branches of government, but may not have sufficient safeguards against the power of big business and concentrated wealth. That in my opinion will be the great challenge in this country going forward.
 
dmp said:
It pays to review history while making judgements about the present.
The emissions legislation in the US, while being expensive, was a unqualified success. Without gov regulation, this improvement in our lives would not have happened, left to the direction of business and the free market.
Not exactly apples and oranges... I am all in favor of reducing heavy metals emissions (like mercury) from burning coal, while I find the characterization of CO2 as a similar hazard as over reach. Unfortunately China and India will probably pump more pollutants into the atmosphere than my local clean-coal plant will reduce. (BTW my electric bill has already gone up, and the clean coal plant is still not running.)
The Constitution has safe guards to balance the power of the branches of government, but may not have sufficient safeguards against the power of big business and concentrated wealth. That in my opinion will be the great challenge in this country going forward.
One of the few cogent thoughts to come out of the Occupy movement (separation of business and state).

I heard one suggestion that reducing corporate taxes to 0% and shifting the burden to personal taxation would reduce the incentive for big business to lobby government for tax breaks.  I am not making this argument just repeating what i read. I do see crony capitalism as a problem.

The recent rash of tax inversions, where US based companies take their offshore reserves to buy a foreign company to change their tax address to enjoy the lower rates elsewhere could gut our tax revenue as we lose more big businesses. jack Lew made a lame comment about "Economic Patriotism"  and finding some way for congress to stop these companies. The answer for this is not using more government force, but to level the tax rate playing field with these other countries so there is no incentive to invert.

JR

PS: Do we agree about something? Oh oh...  :eek:
 
Here are two sites to look at.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/
http://www.surfacestations.org/odd_sites.htm
 
Granted it's at 9800 feet but there was ice on my deck this fine July morning. My dear Labrador yearling wasn't expecting that when she tore out to take her morning whiz and lost an edge and nearly ate it.
 
> it's mid-July.  ... perhaps the 50's tonight.

Global Warming isn't a steady monotonic rise like J.R.'s cooker.

The relatively rapid long-term change in long-established circulation patterns will trigger "eddies" of short-term contrary action.

Here, we had "the Winter from Hell", followed by an exceptionally chilly Spring (nursery grass from Michigan nearly died in May).

OTOH, we are now in the hottest July I have ever seen downeast. Usually we want A/C for a couple days in August; we were gasping in late June and have been braising 14 of 17 days in July.

There's only one slow mellow cow on this peninsula, so I don't blame her. (However there's a hherd of llamas at the end of the street, and I guess they pass gas like cows.)

I'm not too worried. The Gulf (of Mexico) coast may get uninhabitable, if oceans rise Florida will get wetter, but then Maine will be the new Mid-Atlantic, Portland will become Boston and my upstate neck of the coast will become that much more valuable.
 
PRR said:
I'm not too worried. The Gulf (of Mexico) coast may get uninhabitable, if oceans rise Florida will get wetter, but then Maine will be the new Mid-Atlantic, Portland will become Boston and my upstate neck of the coast will become that much more valuable.

You might also get the hurricanes and other extreme weather phenomena...




Many of the anti-climate-change "arguments" cited here were cooked up by fosil fuel industry strategists. Very often the same people who worked for the tobacco industry decades ago - and, thankfully, ultimately lost their case.

It's obvious that accepting the reality of anthropogenic climate change threathens many peoples world view. But it still is reality.
 
I recently heard someone say, 'Now might be a good time to buy "Ocean Front" property in Nevada while it's cheap'.  ;D
 
living sounds said:
Many of the anti-climate-change "arguments" cited here were cooked up by fossil  fuel industry strategists. Very often the same people who worked for the tobacco industry decades ago - and, thankfully, ultimately lost their case.

It's obvious that accepting the reality of anthropogenic climate change threatens many peoples world view. But it still is reality.

Let's not go down this route. So far as I can see nobody has suggested that the climate is not changing. Quite the opposite, it is very clear it has been changing for thousands of years.

The bone of contention is the anthropomorphic bit; that the primary cause of current changes  is man-made and specifically our carbon emissions. Arguments about the vested interests of fossil fuel companies are moot; there are at least as many vested interests in the anthropomorphic camp as any other; just look at the billions spent in 'research'.

I am happy to accept the anthropomorphic reality as soon as someone without a vested interest can demonstrate it.

Cheers

Ian
 
I have noticed a trend in recent years to blame the weather on global warming. I remember when weather was just weather. We seem to have very short memories concerning past extreme weather events.

I try to be open minded about this and apologize for offering my own conspiracy theory, that is not a scientific argument. I led with science... the heat comes from the sun and we re-radiate or capture a fraction of that. Solar output changes, and our surface temperature changes. I do not expect it to not change.

Yes there is a non-scientific competition between opposite interest groups, industry trying to avoid huge extra costs, and a research community rewarded with more funding for scarier predictions. Who suffers or gains does not determine who is correct but we should look at all arguments in the context of such external motivations.

I do not profit or lose from this one way or the other (while I do lose a little from higher energy cost) enough to influence my judgement.

Anecdotal local weather is meaningless and should be ignored. Wasn't there a recent global warming convention that got snowed out?  ;D I am experiencing unusually cool weather for July in MS. today, it's 68' F which is downright pleasant. 

JR
 
ruffrecords said:
Let's not go down this route. So far as I can see nobody has suggested that the climate is not changing. Quite the opposite, it is very clear it has been changing for thousands of years.

The bone of contention is the anthropomorphic bit; that the primary cause of current changes  is man-made and specifically our carbon emissions. Arguments about the vested interests of fossil fuel companies are moot; there are at least as many vested interests in the anthropomorphic camp as any other; just look at the billions spent in 'research'.

I am happy to accept the anthropomorphic reality as soon as someone without a vested interest can demonstrate it.

Cheers

Ian


We're sure of it. An overwhelming majority of scientists around the globe in the relevant field are in agreement. Questioning the credibility of virtually the entire scientific community is quite a leap...

The facts surrounding certain industries massive efforts in climate change denial are on the table and are finely detailed in this book:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchants_of_Doubt
 

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