Green Lungs

[ruffrecords]

As an asthmatic, one thing I noticed during lock down was the impoverishment in air quality. Now I begin to hear about hydrogen fuel cell cars with greater range and faster refill than the current all electric vehicles

I am all in favour of improving air quality by removing internal combustion engines from the universe, but I wonder just how we are going to generate all the electricity needed to charge the batteries or dissociate the water into hydrogen and oxygen in order to power these vehicles. Basic physics tells us we still need the same amount of energy to move a vehicle of a given weight from A to B so the total amount of energy that will be created and consumed is not really going to change. So where is it all coming from? We are nowhere near generating enough energy for domestic consumption let alone enough for untold millions of vehicles as well.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Gold]

As an asthmatic, one thing I noticed during lock down was the impoverishment in air quality. Now I begin to hear about hydrogen fuel cell cars with greater range and faster refill than the current all electric vehicles

I am all in favour of improving air quality by removing internal combustion engines from the universe, but I wonder just how we are going to generate all the electricity needed to charge the batteries or dissociate the water into hydrogen and oxygen in order to power these vehicles. Basic physics tells us we still need the same amount of energy to move a vehicle of a given weight from A to B so the total amount of energy that will be created and consumed is not really going to change. So where is it all coming from? We are nowhere near generating enough energy for domestic consumption let alone enough for untold millions of vehicles as well.

I have been thinking this exact same thing. If the energy grid is operating close to capacity now I have no idea how electric cars will get their power. I think solar should be mandated for residential use to ease the strain on the grid. There is plenty of roof real estate to power normal residential usage with the exception of power hungry devices like a hot water heater or well pump. Not that it will solve the problem but it will chip away at it. There will need to be many more power plants built to accommodate electric vehicles.

There is an ad for the new electric Ford F150 pickup truck. It boasts that the vehicle can power your home in case of a power outage. They don't say how you will charge the vehicle if the power is out...

 

[PermO]

Add to that, in my country they want to quit the gaslines, no more gas for coocking, and heating, everything electric.
Winters can get pretty cold here.
And since people in general are coocking in the same timeslot, I foresee a bit of a challenge there.

 

[Tubetec]

It seemed here air quality was up on average over the course of lockdown , now were more or less back to the old days with traffic its worse that ever.

Its hard to see how the cost of a modern semi autonomic, guided ,gps'd with sensors and reverse parking camera ever equits itself in environmental terms ,even with electric drive it really only amounts to shifting the problem somewhere else . On a purely local level yes electric vehicles can make a difference in terms of air quality , and maybe make us feel better about ourselves but I think if you figure in all the offset costs it hasnt a hope .
Hurtling your self around at 60mph in a 1500 kg steel cage on wheels is always going to be a major kick in the bollocks to the environment , energy is neither created nor destroyed but transferred

 

[Brian Roth]

I have been thinking this exact same thing. If the energy grid is operating close to capacity now I have no idea how electric cars will get their power. I think solar should be mandated for residential use to ease the strain on the grid. There is plenty of roof real estate to power normal residential usage with the exception of power hungry devices like a hot water heater or well pump. Not that it will solve the problem but it will chip away at it. There will need to be many more power plants built to accommodate electric vehicles.

There is an ad for the new electric Ford F150 pickup truck. It boasts that the vehicle can power your home in case of a power outage. They don't say how you will charge the vehicle if the power is out...

It is indeed perplexing, but who will pay for "mandated" rooftop solar? The last I checked, a typical installation runs well into the 5-digit price range.

Many windmill "power farms" are in my region, and they apparently kill hundreds of thousands of birds each year. So, there are backlashes from "anti windmill" groups who also complain the windmills are ugly and make too much noise. A proposed new power line crossing from western Kansas to deliver windmill power into further eastern states has hit a roadblock...NIMBY.

Solar also has problems, This unusual design has been criticized because it literally fries birds:

https://www.sciencealert.com/this-solar-plant-accidentally-incinerates-up-to-6-000-birds-a-year
Photovoltaic systems have such low efficiency that they require HUGE amounts of real estate and cost a small fortune. And, some folks complain they are ugly and need to be stopped, and will fight against the required power lines required to move the power.

And, what happens "when the wind don't blow and the sun don't shine".....my Okie origins are evident there...lol. Apparently we are running low (worldwide) for lithium to make batteries.

Bri

 

[rob_gould]

Someone who knows a lot more about this than me predicted to me that fusion reactors will become the norm. Basically, there's no other way.

 

[Michael Tibes]

Reflecting myself I can say that my own imagination of the future is very limited. I was was a teenager in the 80s when the green movement picked up and it seemed rediculous that regenarative energy might ever play a serious role. Now, in 2021, 45% of electricity in Germany is generated from renewable sources. Also, do we need cars in the classic sense? Do cars still need to become even bigger and heavier? If we really need individual vehicles for people, why can't they be small and therefore way more energy efficient? How many cars does the population really need - can't we replace the individully owned car with a rental system - in order to free up space in the city and save the energy we need to build all the cars which basically stand around unused? Well, try this in Germany - against the lobbyism of VW, Mercedes, BMW etc...

All these are just some brief, well known ideas, I believe there are many more options and possibilities. I'm very conservative with my audio equipment, but I don't mind the concept of transportation changing totally ;-)

Michael

 

[ruffrecords]

The other factor I did not mention in my original post is that the manufacturers are calling these zero carbon vehicles. What utter nonsense. They forget to mention the huge amount of carbon required in the manufacture of the vehicle as well as ignoring the fact that there is no capacity to provide the extra electricity to power these vehicles without the use of fossil fuels.

In the UK last year we generated inly 42% of our energy from renewable resources, and 41% from fossil fuels (of which gas was 37%). In addition the UK consumed 30 million tonnes of petrol and diesel fuel. One statistic I found says the total electricity generated in the UK in 2019 is equivalent to 60 million tonnes of oil. So roughly speaking for an all electric vehicle UK, we need to increase the electricity generated by 50%.

That capacity is not going to appear overnight, nor is it going to be fulfilled by renewable sources.

Cheers

Ian

 

[Gold]

I think the idea is that if power is generated in a central location the carbon emissions can be sequestered.

 

[scott2000]

As of the year 2,000 there were 5.5 trillion cigarettes consumed worldwide every year, which is responsible for ‪16.9 billion pounds of greenhouse gases produced every year by cigarette consumption.

https://palebluedot.llc/carbon-copy/2015/10/14/the-carbon-footprint-of-cigarettes
Wonder how it's going now.... seems like a lot....How much do cars produce??.....

Probably even save a few more lives banning cigarettes than guns .

 

[JohnRoberts]

@ Ian thanks for asking some good questions.

I am not sure that air quality and fossil fuel auto use is a 1:1 correlation (maybe before lead free gas and catalytic convertors).

Now when you mention Hydrogen we have green hydrogen, brown (?) hydrogen, and whatever hydrogen. Not to mention if you burn hydrogen in air for IC motors, or turbines, or for heat, it makes water but it also makes nitrogen oxides (bad for air quality).

You will notice that China hasn't even stopped building coal plants while the planet huggers on the west are trying to ban even NG from cities.

I don't think we have much common sense in the halls of government power.

JR

 

[ruffrecords]

As of the year 2,000 there were 5.5 trillion cigarettes consumed worldwide every year, which is responsible for ‪16.9 billion pounds of greenhouse gases produced every year by cigarette consumption.

https://palebluedot.llc/carbon-copy/2015/10/14/the-carbon-footprint-of-cigarettes
Wonder how it's going now.... seems like a lot....How much do cars produce??.....

Probably even save a few more lives banning cigarettes than guns .

Apparently. world cigarette consumption is only 0.2% of the total so unfortunately banning it will not help much. And this ignores all the CO2 the tobacco plants take out of the atmosphere - like trees maybe they are carbon neutral?

Cheers

Ian

 

[scott2000]

Apparently. world cigarette consumption is only 0.2% of the total so unfortunately banning it will not help much. And this ignores all the CO2 the tobacco plants take out of the atmosphere - like trees maybe they are carbon neutral?

Cheers

Ian

Good to know...

this is weird ...

The tobacco epidemic is one of the biggest public health threats the world has ever faced, killing more than 8 million people a year around the world

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/tobacco

Globally, as of 5:31pm CEST, 18 June 2021, there have been 177,108,695 confirmed cases of COVID-19, including 3,840,223 deaths, reported to WHO. As of 17 June 2021, a total of 2,378,482,776 vaccine doses have been administered.​

https://covid19.who.int/

 

[ruffrecords]

The WHO facts on smoking deaths are confusing if you compare them with their own statistics for the top 10 causes of death:

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/the-top-10-causes-of-death

But either way, smoking is a bad thing.

Cheers

Ian

 

[scott2000]

The WHO facts on smoking deaths are confusing if you compare them with their own statistics for the top 10 causes of death:

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/the-top-10-causes-of-death

Getting page not found error....

But either way, smoking is a bad thing.

Cheers

Ian

Just not bad enough to enforce I guess......

 

[ruffrecords]

Getting page not found error....

Try this: The top 10 causes of death

Just not bad enough to enforce I guess......

It is a lot better than it was. There are many more non-smokers than smokers today. Back in the 70s probably 90% of people smoked.

Cheers

Ian

 

[scott2000]

Try this: The top 10 causes of death

Yeah that is weird..... Maybe tobacco is tied into some of the top ten list somehow.. Who knows...

 

[NOON]

There are smart people who have put a lot of thought into exactly these issues and a lot of the solutions come from energy efficiency. You are correct that it takes the same amount of energy to move a certain mass a certain distance, but the inefficiencies of an internal combustion engine multiplies that, especially in city stop-start traffic. When you add in things like regernative braking then the energy savings are huge in an electric vehicle.

We're lucky here in Australia to have by far the best renewable power resources available, unfortunately our Gov is clinging to fossil fuels like limpets to the hull of a sinking ship. I found this webinar particularly informative and inspiring.

 

[ruffrecords]

There are smart people who have put a lot of thought into exactly these issues and a lot of the solutions come from energy efficiency. You are correct that it takes the same amount of energy to move a certain mass a certain distance, but the inefficiencies of an internal combustion engine multiplies that, especially in city stop-start traffic. When you add in things like regernative braking then the energy savings are huge in an electric vehicle.

I remain sceptical about that. The generation of electricity from fossil fuels is almost as inefficient as the internal combustion engine and I have yet to see a fully costed energy account for any renewable resource. The big problem for electric vehicles right now is air conditioning.

We're lucky here in Australia to have by far the best renewable power resources available, unfortunately our Gov is clinging to fossil fuels like limpets to the hull of a sinking ship. I found this webinar particularly informative and inspiring.

What do you mean by 'best'?

Cheers

Ian

 

[Matador]

The generation of electricity from fossil fuels is almost as inefficient as the internal combustion engine

This isn't true in most practical cases: the typically quoted efficiencies of an ICE are between 10% and 25%, which is TTW (Tank-To-Wheel), and varies widely by the type of vehicle. Diesel's are slightly better, but even the best diesel engines can only achieve perhaps 30%. A comparable EV can achieve between 60-80% BTW (battery-to-wheel).

A natural-gas power plant, even accounting for extraction efficiencies, routinely achieve between 30 and 50% efficiency (in BTU's to Joule conversion) mainly because they have so much more thermal mass than a small ICE housed in a car (where 75% of the energy is dissipated as heat into the air).

The best conversion at the moment for EV's is a roof-mounted PV system directly charging a vehicle, which just recently eclipsed 70% efficiency WTW (well-to-wheel), which isn't even close when compared to ICE's.